So, what changes do we need to make for next year?

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KyCardinalFan
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Re: So, what changes do we need to make for next year?

Post by KyCardinalFan »

The Third Man wrote:
Jmodene wrote:the obvious solution is to raise payroll to $300 million and put together a team with 25 allstars. n
I disagree. I think the best option will be to post strawmen arguments that nobody has proposed and piss all over everybody's intelligent discussion. Everybody else good with this?
No. Anytime it is encouraged for other forum members to pile on and mock a forum member, I am not good with that.

Either just tell them you disagree or let the post go by without comment and continue the discussion.

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JL21
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Re: So, what changes do we need to make for next year?

Post by JL21 »

Faceman wrote:yeah I guess something like that - although not exact. More like "how can it seem like everyone who should be replacement level be in fact below replacement?"

Who would be a good example of a guy who came in and was exactly "replacement level" ?
Barden's VORP of -0.9 is pretty close. Over 115 PA's, he was one run worse than replacement, which isn't a really significant difference. On the flip side, Freese was above replacement this year, Mather was above it last year, and other teams have examples that are both above and below the 0.0 threshold of "replacement player". Jake Fox, for instance, was at 5.8 this year over 250 PA's.

Probably the best example I can find of exact replacement level, doing a quick search, is Micah Hoffpauir, who was at -0.2 over 257 PA's.

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JL21
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Re: So, what changes do we need to make for next year?

Post by JL21 »

Richie Allen wrote:The other complaint, the one I was addressing, is the number of plate appearances by bench guys. In my opinion, this isn't much up for debate. It appears to be a pretty real fact that the Cardinals give many more plate appearances to backups than most teams and far more than the other 3 NL post season teams. The Dodgers pretty much had 8 regulars other than Manny missing all of those games. Without his being out, there likely would have been far fewer bench ABs. From the top (PA by bench players) you've got Jaun Pierre with 425, then down to 204, 121, 107 and then down to double digits. With the Phillies, top bench guy got only 169, then 130, 129, 118, 104 and 104. The Rockies only have 4 bench guys with more than 69 PA, once regular Atkins with 399, 393 from lifetime 100 OPS+ Spilborghs, 317 from 122 OPS+ Gonzalez and 242 from somewhat regular catcher Torrealba. The Cardinals, as I mentioned before (with OPS+ in parenthesis) 404 (76), 307 (72), 304 (83), 193 (63), 170 (107), 116 (57), 114 (75) and 112 (63).
While it's true that they give more to the bench than other teams, this year is something of an outlier. 3B, SS, and LF were all open competitions until at least mid-June for SS and until the end of July for 3B and LF (when DeRosa got off the DL and they acquired Holliday). 3/8 of the lineup either had legit candidates that were hurt (Glaus), underperforming their career marks (Ankiel, K. Greene, Duncan), or shouldn't be starting in the first place (Thurston, Barden, T. Greene).

Throw in the fact that for most of the season, your 2B needed a defensive replacement at the end of games; the 2B and CF had really ugly platoon splits v. LHP's; and that every team is going to have a backup catcher with 100-200 PA's; and it's easy to see how it happened.

I'd be very curious to see the breakdown you use above, but only taking it from 7/26 until the end of the year. We all know TLR loves playing his bench players and giving his regulars a lot of breathers, but I'd contend that it was much, much, much more accentuated this year. It's not like he was sitting better players to give Ankiel, Duncan, Thurston, Barden, or either of the Greenes more playing time.

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Re: So, what changes do we need to make for next year?

Post by phins »

Richie Allen wrote:
Jmodene wrote:the obvious solution is to raise payroll to $300 million and put together a team with 25 allstars. n
An even better solution would be to let your starters play, I don't know, most of the time and limit your horrible hitting (low paid) bench guys to pinch hitting, the occasional get-away day start or step in in case of injury. Look at the history. LaRussa gives between 100 to 450 PA every season to 7 or 8 backups. Apparently, with very little regard to results.
This.

Edit: But I also agree with JL that it was accentuated this year due to circumstances, and not having much else to put out there.

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Re: So, what changes do we need to make for next year?

Post by InvincibleCakeEater »

DeRosa
Holliday
Figgins
Lackey
T. Hudson
Valverde
Wagner
O. Hudson


Call it an offseason

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Re: So, what changes do we need to make for next year?

Post by phins »

InvincibleCakeEater wrote:DeRosa
Holliday
Figgins
Lackey
T. Hudson
Valverde
Wagner
O. Hudson


Call it an offseason
Why wouldn't we also sign Abreu so that we can put Luddy on the bench and have him play against lefties?

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Re: So, what changes do we need to make for next year?

Post by robbotis »

phinstd wrote:
InvincibleCakeEater wrote:DeRosa
Holliday
Figgins
Lackey
T. Hudson
Valverde
Wagner
O. Hudson


Call it an offseason
Why wouldn't we also sign Abreu so that we can put Luddy on the bench and have him play against lefties?
Those could be possible, no?
Trade Ludwick for an arm.

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Re: So, what changes do we need to make for next year?

Post by JL21 »

phinstd wrote:
InvincibleCakeEater wrote:DeRosa
Holliday
Figgins
Lackey
T. Hudson
Valverde
Wagner
O. Hudson


Call it an offseason
Why wouldn't we also sign Abreu so that we can put Luddy on the bench and have him play against lefties?
Sign Abreu?!?! Be realistic!

The 'pen is going to be intriguing for me. Obviously a ton of slots are filled (Reyes, Miller, Franklin, McClellan, probably Motte and/or Hawksworth), and Boggs and Thompson can slap-fight over the last slot if Boggs isn't pressed into duty driving me batpoop bonkers as the #5 starter. But Samuel and Sanchez might just crash that bullpen party.

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Re: So, what changes do we need to make for next year?

Post by Hungary Jack »

robbotis wrote:
phinstd wrote:
InvincibleCakeEater wrote:DeRosa
Holliday
Figgins
Lackey
T. Hudson
Valverde
Wagner
O. Hudson


Call it an offseason
Why wouldn't we also sign Abreu so that we can put Luddy on the bench and have him play against lefties?
Those could be possible, no?
Trade Ludwick for an arm.
Good grief. You forgot to add Manny.

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Re: So, what changes do we need to make for next year?

Post by InvincibleCakeEater »

JL21 wrote: Sign Abreu?!?! Be realistic!

The 'pen is going to be intriguing for me. Obviously a ton of slots are filled (Reyes, Miller, Franklin, McClellan, probably Motte and/or Hawksworth), and Boggs and Thompson can slap-fight over the last slot if Boggs isn't pressed into duty driving me batpoop bonkers as the #5 starter. But Samuel and Sanchez might just crash that bullpen party.
I hope Sanchez crashes that party like Princess Di.

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