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The only task left for Looper to at least prove that he can be useful as a starter, if not semi-decent, is just to see if he can get through a lineup 3 times without getting blasted. I believe he's even been getting the lefties out pretty consistently(although, as everyone has said, in a very small sample size thus far).

The early results have been very encouraging, and Thompson would really have to rock the kasbah to beat him out now.

Popeye_Card wrote:

heyzeus wrote:To be "Ponsoned" for Looper would mean pitching poorly in spring training but being awarded the 5th starting position over other people who have performed better.

Ponson pitched much better than Reyes did last spring. IIRC, Ponson's ERA was in the mid-3's while Reyes was in the 6 range.

The only pitcher who really performed better than Ponson last spring (and didn't get a starting spot) was Wainwright, but I think how we used him last year worked out pretty well.

--P--

Ponson In Spring Training
2-2 3.60 21 Hits in 25 Innings.

Reyes in Spring Training
1-2 8.10 21 Hits in 13.1 Innings

If Looper pitches like Ponson in spring training that he has earned his spot in the rotation. And isnt the whole point to make your team as a whole better? If Thompson and Looper are nearly equal as starters, but Thompson is much more trusted as the reliever, shouldnt Looper be the starter? It has nothing to do with the money.

Popeye_Card wrote:

heyzeus wrote:To be "Ponsoned" for Looper would mean pitching poorly in spring training but being awarded the 5th starting position over other people who have performed better.

Ponson pitched much better than Reyes did last spring. IIRC, Ponson's ERA was in the mid-3's while Reyes was in the 6 range.

The only pitcher who really performed better than Ponson last spring (and didn't get a starting spot) was Wainwright, but I think how we used him last year worked out pretty well.

Ponson and Reyes' DiPS numbers were pretty similar, while Wainwright significantly out pitched the two of them. They're just spring numbers and the job was obviously Ponson's to lose, but the frustration comes from the alleged open competition that wasn't -- along with the fact that people were obviously biased towards, and rooting for, the homegrown players that the team had control over for the foreseeable future, over the alcoholic rent-a-pitcher.

As far as how Looper fared: it looks like he got his sinker working and kept the ball on the ground, and in the park on a windy day at Vero. Here's what Goold said about the matter:

Derrick Goold wrote:The wind gusting out of the ballpark was the biggest part of why Braden Looper’s start Wednesday stood out. He worked 3 1/3 innings, throwing 43 pitches, 30 of which were strikes. He allowed four hits. Two were grounders that found holes. Two others were line-drive singles looped to the outfield off sinkers. He kept the ball down and the one ball he let get a ride to the outfield was snared by Schumaker in left center.

Sounds like he had a pretty good outing, for what that's worth at this point -- probably not a whole lot and unless he really implodes it looks like the job is his, but, as it's been noted on this board, he really doesn't have to do too much for this to be a "success".

Fan_In_NY wrote:
Ponson In Spring Training
2-2 3.60 21 Hits in 25 Innings.

Reyes in Spring Training
1-2 8.10 21 Hits in 13.1 Innings

Apparently I was being too kind with my recollection of "around 6".

--P--

I think if Looper added a forkball, he could be a pretty effective starter as long as he can handle the innings.

That's basically all that Clemens does these days--hard up, hard down, then have the bottom fall out. Mix in an occasional offspeed pitch and/or breaking ball. Not saying that Looper can be Clemens, but if his stuff is even remotely as good, he could be a 4.00 ERA starter.

--P--

And I completely read Goold's report of Looper today wrong, negating my bad comments about him.

But, come on, this is still a bad joke in the Carrot Top range. Looper has never made a major league start. He's never pitched more than three innings, and at 32, we're supposed to buy that suddenly he's got the stuff AND the stamina to go 5-6 innings consistently? Plus, I'm not even going to begin putting stock in his spring numbers thus far.

Thompson is in the same boat as a starter. However, as a reliever, Thompson is click or two better than Looper. With Kinney ailing somewhat and no dominant setup man emerging, I would prefer to keep Thompson in the pen for now and see if he can put together a dominant season there.

Yeah, this is what I thinking the plan was. My expectations of winning on days Looper pitches will stay very low so that if they win, I feel good inside.[/quote]

GatewaySnayke wrote:He's never pitched more than three innings, and at 32, we're supposed to buy that suddenly he's got the stuff AND the stamina to go 5-6 innings consistently?

It's reasonable to assume he could do so until either Mulder is ready or Walt puts together a trade. Remember the early schedule permits the team to effectively roll with a 4 man rotation for the first month or so.

GatewaySnayke wrote:And I completely read Goold's report of Looper today wrong, negating my bad comments about him.

But, come on, this is still a bad joke in the Carrot Top range. Looper has never made a major league start. He's never pitched more than three innings, and at 32, we're supposed to buy that suddenly he's got the stuff AND the stamina to go 5-6 innings consistently? Plus, I'm not even going to begin putting stock in his spring numbers thus far.

Thompson is in the same boat as a starter. However, as a reliever, Thompson is click or two better than Looper. With Kinney ailing somewhat and no dominant setup man emerging, I would prefer to keep Thompson in the pen for now and see if he can put together a dominant season there.

Yeah, this is what I thinking the plan was. My expectations of winning on days Looper pitches will stay very low so that if they win, I feel good inside.

[/quote]

Or in other words I have already made up my mind and I don't care how well he pitches I will dismiss it because it is spring training.

I don't know if Looper can give starter innings without breaking down, buit I do know that the one time Thompson was asked to give starter innings he DID break down.

I can't believe that people still think Ponson didn't earn the job in spring training. I heard every excuse for Reyes in the world last year while he was pitching, well every excuse except that he was pitching bad.

It would absolutly make my year if Looper came out and went 3-1 with a 3.50 ERA the first month of the season.

cardfaninfla wrote:Or in other words I have already made up my mind and I don't care how well he pitches I will dismiss it because it is spring training.

So you think I should be impressed? OK, Jason Marquis has been outstanding this spring, or he was in his last start. Am I supposed to rue the day the Cardinals chose not to re-sign him? If Looper is doing this later in the month, then perhaps I'll eat those words. But shutting down guys wearing No. 89 isn't about to make me start doing backflips.

I don't know if Looper can give starter innings without breaking down, buit I do know that the one time Thompson was asked to give starter innings he DID break down.

As I recall it, it was a bullpen game and he wasn't asked to give more than three innings, though they were able to stretch him out during his stint in Memphis. But this presents an interesting case: on one hand you want me to pat Looper on the back for having two good outings in ST, then on the other hand you want to dismiss Thompson based off of a start a year ago. Which is it?

I can't believe that people still think Ponson didn't earn the job in spring training. I heard every excuse for Reyes in the world last year while he was pitching, well every excuse except that he was pitching bad.

Flip Ponson and Reyes's numbers and it still comes out in favor of Ponson. There was no "competition." LaRuncan did not push for Ponson because they were dreaming of him coming out of the bullpen. But you're right -- it wasn't Reyes's job, it was Wainwright's.

It would absolutly make my year if Looper came out and went 3-1 with a 3.50 ERA the first month of the season.

Well, I would be right there with you, as would everyone else who roots for the Cardinals. Unfortunately, those numbers would probably happen if he were coming out of the bullpen, and not pitching the rotation.

Here's the thing: We already knew Looper could make a three inning relief appearance. We already knew he could be effective on some days. He hasn't shown us anything we haven't already seen. Until he does, I'm not sold on the deal.

And what I'm looking to see is at least two trips through a lineup and at least 5+ innings pitched, with a decent number of runs/hits allowed. If he can do that three times this spring, that'll be enough for me.