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whyhellothere wrote:what I don't like about our bullpen is we really don't have that one go to guy that we know can shut down the other team when we need it

we have a lot of decent guys, but no great guys

We didn't have that guy last year either.

As good as Wainwright was, he was putting a lot of guys on base towards the end there.

As good as Wainwright was, he was putting a lot of guys on base towards the end there.

AW could get a K when we needed one. We don't have a guy like that right now and need to find one.

G. Keenan wrote:

whyhellothere wrote:what I don't like about our bullpen is we really don't have that one go to guy that we know can shut down the other team when we need it

we have a lot of decent guys, but no great guys

We didn't have that guy last year either.

As good as Wainwright was, he was putting a lot of guys on base towards the end there.

yeah and last year our bullpen was pretty bad.

whenever a guy came in last year i basically crossed my fingers and hoped they would do alright. hopefully one of our young guys can develop as a go to guy to bridge the gap to Izzy, who is a cross your finger and hope kinda guy himself.

whyhellothere wrote:

G. Keenan wrote:

whyhellothere wrote:what I don't like about our bullpen is we really don't have that one go to guy that we know can shut down the other team when we need it

we have a lot of decent guys, but no great guys

We didn't have that guy last year either.

As good as Wainwright was, he was putting a lot of guys on base towards the end there.

yeah and last year our bullpen was pretty bad.

whenever a guy came in last year i basically crossed my fingers and hoped they would do alright. hopefully one of our young guys can develop as a go to guy to bridge the gap to Izzy, who is a cross your finger and hope kinda guy himself.

You're right. Our bullpen was atrocious last year. They sold their souls to the devil to be lights out in the postseason and the memory of that has obscured how terrible they were for most of the year.

So far the reports on Izzy are good, but he is a keep your fingers crossed big time situation.

You're right. Our bullpen was atrocious last year. They sold their souls to the devil to be lights out in the postseason and the memory of that has obscured how terrible they were for most of the year.

They were bad last year and this year they will be even worse. I'm not trying to be a downer on the team, but everyone that we didn't think was reliable last year (Thompson, TJ, Flores, Hancock) has moved up a spot or two. And our most reliable relievers, Looper and AW, are out of the pen. I think that the pen will be very inconsistent, despite a return to form from Izzy.

greenback44 wrote:I don't see what's so bad about this article. Granting that losing Jason Marquis is a positive and Josh Kinney wasn't particularly important a year ago, the Cardinals pitching staff right now is basically Chris Carpenter, Josh Hancock and 10 question marks.

I think Rogers grossly mischaracterizes the bullpen situation. As you suggest, there is a great of uncertainty as to who will perform what role in the pen--much of it having to do with AW and Looper moving into the rotation.

But it's more of a situation where the first domino (Izzy ready to close) needs to fall, which enables the second domino (AW to the rotation) and third domino (Looper or Thompson to the rotation) to fall. Kinney was the leading guy to assume the setup role, but I am sure that Duncan and TLR thought that this would be a competition among Springer, Kinney, Thompson/Looper and other arms in ST.

If Rogers had done his homework he would have focused on the attempt to rebuild the rotation. Kinney's injury really has no bearing on this.

If Rogers had done his homework he would have focused on the attempt to rebuild the rotation. Kinney's injury really has no bearing on this.

I agree that the rotation is much more important, and the bullpen, while in flux, won't make a huge difference if the rotation settles in as well as I think it will.



As a side note, I find it extremely ironic that all winter long I was touting our bullpen as a strength and the rotation as a problem. Now I'm just about convinced that the rotation is going to be a strength and the back-to-middle of the bullpen is going to be a real issue. I think Izzy is going to be just fine, but after him and Thompson, I don't really like anyone else out there.

After reading all the posts in this topic I still don't know why this article leads you to believe he is "on crack."

What did he say that was so bad? The bullpen wasn't a strength last year; we didn't make any major additions (we're essentially swapping out Wainwright with Springer, which is clearly a downgrade). You could say that Kinney was, in a sense, an addition, since he didn't really pitch that much last year and showed a lot of potential... but his injury has rendered that argument void.

Count me a mong those who did not find the usually-vapid Jackson's article all that egregious. A couple quick thoughts about some of the posts on this thread:

the Cardinals pitching staff right now is basically Chris Carpenter, Josh Hancock and 10 question marks

Not for nothing, but it would even be fair to think of Hancock as a questionmark. He's 29 and has the equivalent of a season and a half in the majors. He puts a ton of balls in play so there is the possibility of some big time regression (especially if lack of depth in the pen means TLR getting to pick and choose a little less than he likes), and he does not get the ball past many hitters. What he is going to do this year is a pretty open question, frankly.

I heard his velocity was coming back up. He was hitting 91 in his last start. That's where he sat last year.

He was hitting (not sitting) 91 this week. And yes, that IS like last year, when he worked 88-91 -- and when he gave up rather a lot of homers, had an ERA of 5, pitched well enough to earn an ERA of more like 5 and a half (see: FIP), and admitted he couldn't throw as hard as he used to and didn't know why. So, being where he left off last season is no particular accomplishment so far, in my eyes.

Til he is sitting 92-94, and hitting 95+ at least a couple-few pitches per start, he still is not the same as he was exiting 2005, regardless of whether due to pitch selection, mechanics, injury, fatigue, or the lunar cycles. Mind you, I'm NOT saying he can't be a good pitcher exactly the way he is. But even if only in my eyes, the mystery of where his explosive stuff and late movement and above-average velocity all went is very much still out there.

Often it's one word in an article that sets the tone. For me, it is the word "forced" when talking about moving Wainwright to the rotation. The lack of moves by WJ "forced" the Cardinals to move him.

Horsecrup. AW has been targeted as a starter all along, only moving to the bullpen last year because there wasn't room.