THT: Legends Among Us: NL Position Players (HOF)

The Third Man · Post by **The Third Man** » April 26 07, 10:06 pm

Similar, just Ozzie was a lot better - whether you go by OPS+ and traditional defensive metrics, more advanced metrics, Win Shares, WARP, whatever.

a_smith · Post by **a_smith** » April 26 07, 10:43 pm

The Third Man wrote:Similar, just Ozzie was a lot better - whether you go by OPS+ and traditional defensive metrics, more advanced metrics, Win Shares, WARP, whatever.

any data to back this up? based on the data from the last page they look pretty damn close

The Third Man · Post by **The Third Man** » April 26 07, 10:57 pm

a_smith wrote:
The Third Man wrote:Similar, just Ozzie was a lot better - whether you go by OPS+ and traditional defensive metrics, more advanced metrics, Win Shares, WARP, whatever.
any data to back this up? based on the data from the last page they look pretty damn close

BP's WARP3: 138.8 to 105.2, Ozzie.

Trying to find Dan Rosencheck's WARP, don't have WS numbers with me anymore (my NBJHBA got stolen with my bookbag).

EDIT: Rosencheck has Ozzie at 81.7 WARP2, I don't have Vizquel though because I don't have an AL spreadsheet, I don't think he ever posted one on BTF.

a_smith · Post by **a_smith** » April 26 07, 11:04 pm

The Third Man wrote:
a_smith wrote:
The Third Man wrote:Similar, just Ozzie was a lot better - whether you go by OPS+ and traditional defensive metrics, more advanced metrics, Win Shares, WARP, whatever.
any data to back this up? based on the data from the last page they look pretty damn close
BP's WARP3: 138.8 to 105.2, Ozzie.

Trying to find Dan Rosencheck's WARP, don't have WS numbers with me anymore (my NBJHBA got stolen with my bookbag).

cool, thanks. i was wondering
normally you dont seem like "a pull data out of your ass" kind of guy, but since you said that OPS+ was not close and that contradicted the previous post's numbers i was wondering if you had turned to the pipe.
but no, all is right with the world and ozzie is better than "what's his name"

maddash · Post by **maddash** » April 26 07, 11:07 pm

a_smith wrote:
The Third Man wrote:Similar, just Ozzie was a lot better - whether you go by OPS+ and traditional defensive metrics, more advanced metrics, Win Shares, WARP, whatever.
any data to back this up? based on the data from the last page they look pretty damn close

If you trust the Davenport system, Ozzie and Omar's FRAA and FRAR are "staggeringly" different.

Ozzie (2573 games played)
EQA .262
FRAA/FRAR 289/870
WARP3 138.8

Omar (2460 games played)
EQA .247
FRAA/FRAR 118/639
WARP3 105.2

The EQA shows that Ozzie was a modestly better hitter than Omar, the FRAA and FRAR shows that Ozzie was a dramatically better fielder than Omar. Granted, I don't know the formula for FRAA or FRAR, and it could be that Ozzie's numbers are so much better because he played behind a groundball staff and simply had more attempts - 12,905 Total Chances for Ozzie verses 10,831 TC for Omar...

I'd like to see a UZR comparison between the two.

haltz · Post by **haltz** » April 26 07, 11:13 pm

There is a 174 run difference in BRAA as well. Which basically accounts for the rest of the ~30 wins of WARP.

I'm seeing slightly different numbers Maddash (although exactly the same idea). Where are you looking, out of curiosity? EDIT: don't answer that, I'm dumb.

Oh, and the EqA accounts for baserunning. Ozzie stole 210 more bases while being caught the same amount of times, basically.

Transmogrified Tiger · Post by **Transmogrified Tiger** » April 26 07, 11:22 pm

thrill wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:Ozzie and Omar are staggeringly similar players.
Dude.

Backflip.

It's no Barehand, Omar has flair during play yo.

maddash · Post by **maddash** » April 26 07, 11:22 pm

haltz wrote:There is a 174 run difference in BRAA as well. Which basically accounts for the rest of the ~30 wins of WARP.

I'm seeing slightly different numbers Maddash (although exactly the same idea). Where are you looking, out of curiosity?

Oh, and the EqA accounts for baserunning. Ozzie stole 210 more bases while being caught the same amount of times, basically.

I got my numbers from BP (using Adjusted For All Time)
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/smithoz01.php
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/vizquom01.php

Hopefully I fat fingered everything in correctly.

And you're right about the baserunning in EqA. Ozzie was a much more effective base-stealer, so that would account for difference.

The Third Man · Post by **The Third Man** » April 26 07, 11:39 pm

a_smith wrote:cool, thanks. i was wondering
normally you dont seem like "a pull data out of your ass" kind of guy, but since you said that OPS+ was not close and that contradicted the previous post's numbers i was wondering if you had turned to the pipe.
but no, all is right with the world and ozzie is better than "what's his name"

That was actually a bit of a mistake on my part, I meant to mention Ozzie's SB/CS, which do add quite a bit to his offensive value.

G. Keenan · Post by **G. Keenan** » April 27 07, 12:10 am

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:
thrill wrote:
Transmogrified Tiger wrote:Ozzie and Omar are staggeringly similar players.
Dude.

Backflip.
It's no Barehand, Omar has flair during play yo.

Did Ozzie not do that when he was a Padre and rocking the fro?