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Popeye_Card wrote:

MrCrowesGarden wrote: That said, if Stanton isn't willing to waive his NTC, it could be (emphasis on the "could") indicative of a bigger problem with the perception of this organization as it stands today.

Maybe it is the organization. Maybe it is the location. I think it differs every time. Sometimes when players get to name 5 teams, they'll name the 5 teams most likely to trade for them just so that they can have leverage to demand something to waive their no-trade clause.

That's why I wanted to make sure the emphasis was on could in this instance. I know Stanton has stated a desired preference to play on the west coast, and if that's true, well... not much you can do there. But given that we've heard about players being reluctant to come to St. Louis or the Cardinals the last two years, I do wonder if more is at play... or if they'd feel differently with another manager, etc.

MrCrowesGarden wrote:

Popeye_Card wrote:

MrCrowesGarden wrote: That said, if Stanton isn't willing to waive his NTC, it could be (emphasis on the "could") indicative of a bigger problem with the perception of this organization as it stands today.

Maybe it is the organization. Maybe it is the location. I think it differs every time. Sometimes when players get to name 5 teams, they'll name the 5 teams most likely to trade for them just so that they can have leverage to demand something to waive their no-trade clause.

That's why I wanted to make sure the emphasis was on could in this instance. I know Stanton has stated a desired preference to play on the west coast, and if that's true, well... not much you can do there. But given that we've heard about players being reluctant to come to St. Louis or the Cardinals the last two years, I do wonder if more is at play... or if they'd feel differently with another manager, etc.

Heyward was slammed for telling the truth.

Money is the key here, I think. If SF takes a huge chunk of that contract their prospects won't matter, as much. We could certainly beat them in a package. But don't forget Dollar Bill's words about being tepid regarding giant additions to payroll.

MrCrowesGarden wrote:

Popeye_Card wrote:

MrCrowesGarden wrote: That said, if Stanton isn't willing to waive his NTC, it could be (emphasis on the "could") indicative of a bigger problem with the perception of this organization as it stands today.

Maybe it is the organization. Maybe it is the location. I think it differs every time. Sometimes when players get to name 5 teams, they'll name the 5 teams most likely to trade for them just so that they can have leverage to demand something to waive their no-trade clause.

That's why I wanted to make sure the emphasis was on could in this instance. I know Stanton has stated a desired preference to play on the west coast, and if that's true, well... not much you can do there. But given that we've heard about players being reluctant to come to St. Louis or the Cardinals the last two years, I do wonder if more is at play... or if they'd feel differently with another manager, etc.

Pretty much the number one (amongst several) hurdles to this trade happening is that the money can't talk this time. Instead it's whatever pitch Girsch and Mo and Matheny can lay down, which is not the most likely pitch I can see appealing to a young superstar. Lots of managerial hirings are leaning young and savvy and new-school. Stanton, to my eyes, would prefer to play for those kinds of clubhouses.

I kind of see it as three different hurdles:
1. Will Stanton come to St Louis
2. How much of Stanton's contract will the Cardinals take
3. What kind of players will the Cardinals be willing to give up

2 and 3 kind of go hand in hand and are just baseball decisions that one way or another need to be made. We can kvetch and moan etc about their decision making process and cheapness and/or budget and/or whatever.

But, if #1 is the reason this doesn't happen, I think it's a sign of larger problems. We heard rumblings of it with Turner this past offseason, Heyward flat out said it, and if it prevents stanton from coming here...that's....not good.

MrCrowesGarden wrote:It's going to come down to Stanton being willing to take a deal to STL IMO. The other most serious suitor is the Giants who don't have the prospects we have to offer. Maybe something will change between now and then, but that's how I see it at this time.

That said, if Stanton isn't willing to waive his NTC, it could be (emphasis on the "could") indicative of a bigger problem with the perception of this organization as it stands today.

I'm still not sure how much prospects have to do with this trade. The cost in dollars is going to have an impact on the cost in players, so a franchise like the Giants might have a weaker player package but a stronger financial package. Forum fans keep saying that money doesn't matter and we can afford it, but that's really easy to say and almost certainly not true. Regardless, that's definitely not how the Cards do things, and that's all that really matters here.

Also, the circumstances are going to play into this a lot when it comes to Stanton waiving/not waiving his NTC. If he wants to go home to California, then it really doesn't say anything about the Cards as a franchise. And choosing the Giants over the Cards based on recent history is hardly a statement on our perception. Both franchises have been really good until recently and are just a few moves away from being really good again.

Personally, I think the Giants have a real advantage over us and there might not be anything that we can do to keep them from Stanton if they choose to go after him and Stanton wants to go there.

Fat Strat wrote:

MrCrowesGarden wrote:It's going to come down to Stanton being willing to take a deal to STL IMO. The other most serious suitor is the Giants who don't have the prospects we have to offer. Maybe something will change between now and then, but that's how I see it at this time.

That said, if Stanton isn't willing to waive his NTC, it could be (emphasis on the "could") indicative of a bigger problem with the perception of this organization as it stands today.

I'm still not sure how much prospects have to do with this trade. The cost in dollars is going to have an impact on the cost in players, so a franchise like the Giants might have a weaker player package but a stronger financial package. Forum fans keep saying that money doesn't matter and we can afford it, but that's really easy to say and almost certainly not true. Regardless, that's definitely not how the Cards do things, and that's all that really matters here.

Also, the circumstances are going to play into this a lot when it comes to Stanton waiving/not waiving his NTC. If he wants to go home to California, then it really doesn't say anything about the Cards as a franchise. And choosing the Giants over the Cards based on recent history is hardly a statement on our perception. Both franchises have been really good until recently and are just a few moves away from being really good again.

Personally, I think the Giants have a real advantage over us and there might not be anything that we can do to keep them from Stanton if they choose to go after him and Stanton wants to go there.

You're only looking at half the picture. The Giants and Cardinals can go dollar for dollar in money. They can't match us in prospects. The Marlins will assuredly prefer to deal with the Cardinals, but Stanton may not.

As I stated, Stanton may want to play on the west coast, and if that's it, so be it. But there is a negative perception of the Cardinals or the clubhouse or St. Louis we've heard for a couple years now, most recently with Fowler. Except, as mistermanager points out, we can't throw more money at it as a way of saying "get over it."

Fat Strat wrote:

MrCrowesGarden wrote:It's going to come down to Stanton being willing to take a deal to STL IMO. The other most serious suitor is the Giants who don't have the prospects we have to offer. Maybe something will change between now and then, but that's how I see it at this time.

That said, if Stanton isn't willing to waive his NTC, it could be (emphasis on the "could") indicative of a bigger problem with the perception of this organization as it stands today.

I'm still not sure how much prospects have to do with this trade. The cost in dollars is going to have an impact on the cost in players, so a franchise like the Giants might have a weaker player package but a stronger financial package. Forum fans keep saying that money doesn't matter and we can afford it, but that's really easy to say and almost certainly not true. Regardless, that's definitely not how the Cards do things, and that's all that really matters here.

Also, the circumstances are going to play into this a lot when it comes to Stanton waiving/not waiving his NTC. If he wants to go home to California, then it really doesn't say anything about the Cards as a franchise. And choosing the Giants over the Cards based on recent history is hardly a statement on our perception. Both franchises have been really good until recently and are just a few moves away from being really good again.

Personally, I think the Giants have a real advantage over us and there might not be anything that we can do to keep them from Stanton if they choose to go after him and Stanton wants to go there.

I really agree with what MCG said. Let me ask you, at what point do you start worrying about players not wanting to come to StL instead of to the Cubs, or White Sox or (insert team here) when all things else are the same? Because, like I said in a previous post, Heyward flat out chose the Cubs over the Cardinals, Robert flat out chose the White Sox over the Cardinals, there were rumors that Turner wanted to stay in LA instead of entertaining offers from StL, if you add stanton to the list...that's a lot of high profile players refusing to come to StL that they really or at least moderately wanted to sign in the last 3 years? And, I can't really remember it ever happening before. Maybe some situations like Turner's get glossed over, but the Robert and Heyward decisions seemed to be unique at the time and are becoming common place anymore.

MrCrowesGarden wrote:You're only looking at half the picture. The Giants and Cardinals can go dollar for dollar in money. They can't match us in prospects. The Marlins will assuredly prefer to deal with the Cardinals, but Stanton may not.

As I stated, Stanton may want to play on the west coast, and if that's it, so be it. But there is a negative perception of the Cardinals or the clubhouse or St. Louis we've heard for a couple years now, most recently with Fowler. Except, as mistermanager points out, we can't throw more money at it as a way of saying "get over it."

Can we go dollar for dollar with the Giants? The Giants have had a higher payroll than us for awhile. Since 2011, their payroll has skyrocketed with no indication that they need to slow down. They can clear 3/4's of Stanton's salary next year just by not picking up Cain's option.

I'm not opposed to the Cards spending more and I generally agree with you that our budget could be higher if we would let it. At the same time, our payroll has jumped $26M since just 2015 and $54M since 2010. We're a profitable franchise and we likely have money to spend, but what are the limits on that money? It's one thing for fans to say that Stanton fits those limits as fans, and it's another thing for the Cards to say it. They haven't said it. Good, if you consider him the mouthpiece of the front office, has indicated (not so long ago) that the Cards aren't likely to be willing to take on that kind of salary commitment.

What I'm saying is that if we come to the Marlins and say, "Pick up $50M of Stanton's salary and we'll give you Reyes, Hudson, Weaver, Piscotty, and Mo's bow tie collection" and the Giants say, "we'll take the whole salary and give you Barry Bond's recliner and a A ball catcher", the Marlins would probably take the Giants offer. And Stanton might force them to. I could be wrong, but I think money's the key here and I think the Cards will try to get away with paying as little money as possible.

If they don't realize they're gonna have to pay or even overpay by their standards for a bona fide superstar, that's a problem now and a problem for the future. That's a good way to lock yourself into a team where the floor and the ceiling are one in the same.