Investing for Retirement

[Michael]

Hmmm. Looking at this myself, my conclusion is that at 37, it's already too late to really move my planned retirement/FIRE date too much without a huge effort. My overall savings rate is ~27% but moving up retirement a single year would require a ~5% bump. The marginal utility of that consumption over a couple decades seems way higher.

Honestly, as I'm sure you're aware, savings rate/expenses is just one part of the equation. I think a very fair criticism of FIRE community blogs is they focus most of their evangelizing on expenses side of the equation. I'm sure they do it because bragging about cutting your kids hair to save money is more relatable/sell-able than the other part of the equation which is... make more money. Although I think almost every household income level can learn something from the FIRE community, in practice it's very much an upper middle class/rich aspiration. You see it in the NYT article I posted.

So my rhetorical, and totally not douchey, question is - can you make more money without inflating your lifestyle and making yourself miserable?

I actually credit my present situation mostly to my folks. Because of them I was able to graduate college debt free. Additionally, at an early age my father sat me down and explained how finances and compounding interest works. Based on that info I always deducted 10-15% of my income to my 401k.

[lukethedrifter]

Sounds like a coupon clipping cult.

[Arthur Dent]

So my rhetorical, and totally not douchey, question is - can you make more money without inflating your lifestyle and making yourself miserable?

I mean, maybe, but also "try to make more money" is not exactly an original idea.

Edit: My feeling is that a better scheme, to the extent it exists, is to accept lower pay for a lower stress job you enjoy rather that take a high stress one accompanied by an extreme program. As to trying to make more money, I have the perfect solution: my wife gets a better job! Seriously, in her case getting back into the profession she is trained for after years in exile has been a huge happiness boost totally independent of the pay.

Although I think almost every household income level can learn something from the FIRE community, in practice it's very much an upper middle class/rich aspiration. You see it in the NYT article I posted.

Also, the math here doesn't add up:

Mr. Jensen was making about $110,000 a year and had benefits, but the stress hardly seemed worth it. He couldn’t unwind with his family after work; he spent days huddled over the toilet. He lost 10 pounds.

After one especially brutal workday, Mr. Jensen Googled “How do I retire early?” and his eyes were opened. He talked to his wife and came up with a plan: They saved a sizable portion of their income over the next five years and drastically reduced expenses, until their net worth was around $1.2 million.

This would only be possible if they had already saved most of that $1.2 million. The five year plan did not make this happen.

Sounds like a coupon clipping cult.

From my limited reading of their stuff, I agree. They seem to advocate taking draconian steps that are totally unappealing for most people sometimes combined with condescending attitudes about how everyone can & should be liberating themselves this way. People are generally not great at managing money, so certainly there's great benefit to be had improving those habits/behaviors, but the particular extreme individualist form seems not so helpful/applicable for most.

[IMADreamer]

I think the point about it being a middle/upper class idea to FIRE is very true. If you are poor you just aren't going to be able to do much more than get by. Let alone save the money needed to think of having financial independence. Hell I'd be willing to bet at no point in my parents lives could they have pulled off financial independence. That's the nature of being farmers though.

Your choice in partner is also a huge factor. Doesn't matter how much you save if they spend it all. I'm very lucky in that my partner is a regular old tight ass. lol

[Popeye_Card]

I guess I'm just not that interested in retiring super early. Sure, the time off would be nice. But I thoroughly enjoy going to the office everyday and interacting with my co-workers. I really enjoy my alone time away from work and I have a ton of hobbies, but I think I would get bored fast if that were my life every day.

I do admit though that I'm extremely fortunate to have both a job that pays extremely well, and has an excellent office dynamic. If I didn't have either of those, I might feel differently.

[MAGA]

I guess I'm just not that interested in retiring super early. Sure, the time off would be nice. But I thoroughly enjoy going to the office everyday and interacting with my co-workers. I really enjoy my alone time away from work and I have a ton of hobbies, but I think I would get bored fast if that were my life every day.

I'm in the same boat. A 4-5 day long weekend has me itching to get back.

If I'm reading this right, these people are retiring super early but most supplement their income or live a really no frills lifestyle to make it work? So they're semi-retired?

[Swirls]

I guess I'm just not that interested in retiring super early. Sure, the time off would be nice. But I thoroughly enjoy going to the office everyday and interacting with my co-workers. I really enjoy my alone time away from work and I have a ton of hobbies, but I think I would get bored fast if that were my life every day.

I'm in the same boat. A 4-5 day long weekend has me itching to get back.

If I'm reading this right, these people are retiring super early but most supplement their income or live a really no frills lifestyle to make it work? So they're semi-retired?

Right. They aren't retiring at 40 or 45 and living out the rest of their days on a tropical beach drinking mai tais. They likely have a recreational side-gig providing minimal ancillary income (like an Etsy shop), and they probably live in a pretty small house to avoid large utility bills and property taxes.

[Popeye_Card]

I guess I'm just not that interested in retiring super early. Sure, the time off would be nice. But I thoroughly enjoy going to the office everyday and interacting with my co-workers. I really enjoy my alone time away from work and I have a ton of hobbies, but I think I would get bored fast if that were my life every day.

I'm in the same boat. A 4-5 day long weekend has me itching to get back.

If I'm reading this right, these people are retiring super early but most supplement their income or live a really no frills lifestyle to make it work? So they're semi-retired?

Right. They aren't retiring at 40 or 45 and living out the rest of their days on a tropical beach drinking mai tais. They likely have a recreational side-gig providing minimal ancillary income (like an Etsy shop), and they probably live in a pretty small house to avoid large utility bills and property taxes.

I feel like I would rather keep working my normal job and good pay, and take better advantage of the increasing vacation time. Then be able to sip mai tais at age 60.

[IMADreamer]

It's more about having less obligation and doing more of what you want to do. Being in a position of being able to say screw it I'm not doing this today, is way better than having to go into work at some job you don't like just to pay your mortgage. Obviously if you enjoy what you are doing it wouldn't make sense to stop and do nothing.

[Michael]

Sounds like a coupon clipping cult.

You're not wrong. MMM front page literally has the words "join the cult" for its email sign-up. MMM is basically a character the author plays so the communication style can get pretty weird for comedic effect. Although I consider myself a part of the community there's a lot of blogs and posters that make my eyes roll.

However, in their defense personal finance advice/self help is a tough communication needle to thread. Sometimes advice can come off as judgmental and/or douchy even when it's not meant to be. My wife is in the industry and communication is the single toughest aspect to it.
Rereading some my posts in this thread I'm sure my tone could be better. For example:

So my rhetorical, and totally not douchey, question is - can you make more money without inflating your lifestyle and making yourself miserable?

I mean, maybe, but also "try to make more money" is not exactly an original idea.

Edit: My feeling is that a better scheme, to the extent it exists, is to accept lower pay for a lower stress job you enjoy rather that take a high stress one accompanied by an extreme program. As to trying to make more money, I have the perfect solution: my wife gets a better job! Seriously, in her case getting back into the profession she is trained for after years in exile has been a huge happiness boost totally independent of the pay.

I'm going to challenge you a bit here. In many situations (maybe not yours) a better paying job does not have to mean less free time or more stress. In my opinion, it's a false dichotomy many people make. Some of the most highly compensated people I know work the least amount of hours. How does your compensation compare to the rest of the market with your skillset? Do you ever press your management for larger raises? Have you considered moving somewhere else?

That said, if you're happy with your job that's great and you shouldn't make waves. I'm just making the point that another way to move your financial independence date is to make more money while keeping your expenses static. It's a weird message to give, but there you have it.

Also, the math here doesn't add up:
snip
This would only be possible if they had already saved most of that $1.2 million. The five year plan did not make this happen.

My guess it's due to preexisting savings, his wife's salary and the market run up.

FWIW, he wasn't a great FIRE example with his wife continuing to work. He's basically a stay at home dad while his wife brings home the bacon.