Carpenter Signed through 2011, op. 2012 (Matthew Leach)

[Michael]

why the obsession with getting a bargain?

usually when you extend a player, especially 2 full years ahead of time, you are raking on more risk to get a bit of a better value. the player takes a little less to get more security for the future. i think we took on added risk, but still paid out basically market value.

i agree with Michael that it's an interesting decision at least.

Oswalt is nearly an identical pitcher, and he just signed a similar contract, but for an extra $2 mil per year. Based on that, I think that the Cards did get a "bargain".

You do it 2 years in advance because if he continues to contend for a Cy Young for the next 2 years (which is likely, in my opinion), then 5 years and 65 mil isn't going to even get his attention 2 years from now. It's risk/reward, and it's a good way for the Cards to do business (similar contracts to Rolen and Pujols have turned out fine).

Rolan and AP are position players so they are less of an injury risk so that really isn't a fair comparison. Plus Oswalt is younger and only had one year left on his deal as opposed to 2.

[Socnorb11]

why the obsession with getting a bargain?

usually when you extend a player, especially 2 full years ahead of time, you are raking on more risk to get a bit of a better value. the player takes a little less to get more security for the future. i think we took on added risk, but still paid out basically market value.

i agree with Michael that it's an interesting decision at least.

Oswalt is nearly an identical pitcher, and he just signed a similar contract, but for an extra $2 mil per year. Based on that, I think that the Cards did get a "bargain".

You do it 2 years in advance because if he continues to contend for a Cy Young for the next 2 years (which is likely, in my opinion), then 5 years and 65 mil isn't going to even get his attention 2 years from now. It's risk/reward, and it's a good way for the Cards to do business (similar contracts to Rolen and Pujols have turned out fine).

Rolan and AP are position players so they are less of an injury risk so that really isn't a fair comparison. Plus Oswalt is younger and only had one year left on his deal as opposed to 2.

Oswalt is only 2 years younger. I'm not sure how that makes him less of a risk. Is there any evidence that 35 year old pitchers are less effective than 33 year old pitchers?

Again, the reason you do it 2 years in advance is because Carpenter's value COULD be astronomical if he continues to be the best pitcher in the NL for 2 more years. Heck, Greg Maddux got 5 years, 57.5 mil way back in 1998 when he was the best pitcher in the NL. 8 years later, Carpenter is getting only an extra 1.5 mil per year as the best pitcher in the NL.

There is some risk. Nobody is denying that. But risk/reward is sometimes how a small market team has to operate in order to be successful.

[MaskedMan]

Mixed feelings here.

On the one hand you have a pitcher who was underpaid for 2 years (not 3 as some have suggested), but we took a HUGE chance on a guy who was asking his wife the year after we picked him up, IIRC, that he should retire. We take the chance and let him, has surgery and rehab and get back to his form while paying him well, BTW, and he takes a discount for that to the Cards for a couple years BEFORE his breakout Cy Young year. He rewards the org for waiting. We now reward his further diligence (sp?) with a contract that rewards his work (but also our risk) with a 5 year deal (never happen for ANY other pitcher) because we see his work ethic and conditioning that we can parlay into a longer term deal with our core that will be adjusted with the offsets in some other contracts coming due and the future market rates.

You all know the "other" injury hand here...

It's not a bad strategy, just a bit more risky for a mid-market team that spends like a larger market franchise. Hope it works out...it's a risk. That said I hope Carp can come through like a Clemens with a future "hometown" discount or deferred payments, (ala Izzy-Edmonds)

[WentCrazy]

why the obsession with getting a bargain?

usually when you extend a player, especially 2 full years ahead of time, you are raking on more risk to get a bit of a better value. the player takes a little less to get more security for the future. i think we took on added risk, but still paid out basically market value.

i agree with Michael that it's an interesting decision at least.

Oswalt is nearly an identical pitcher, and he just signed a similar contract, but for an extra $2 mil per year. Based on that, I think that the Cards did get a "bargain".

You do it 2 years in advance because if he continues to contend for a Cy Young for the next 2 years (which is likely, in my opinion), then 5 years and 65 mil isn't going to even get his attention 2 years from now. It's risk/reward, and it's a good way for the Cards to do business (similar contracts to Rolen and Pujols have turned out fine).

Rolan and AP are position players so they are less of an injury risk so that really isn't a fair comparison. Plus Oswalt is younger and only had one year left on his deal as opposed to 2.

Michael its as simple as risk v. reward. If he collapses you've blown $13M annually. If he performs at 90% of his last three seasons then you've got a guy signed at about a 30% discount.

Furthermore, I'm sure someone in the Sales department just extended the contract with the local carpenters union for the scoreboard sign offsetting huge some percentage of this deal.

[Magneto]

Mixed feelings here.

On the one hand you have a pitcher who was underpaid for 2 years (not 3 as some have suggested), but we took a HUGE chance on a guy who was asking his wife the year after we picked him up, IIRC, that he should retire. We take the chance and let him, has surgery and rehab and get back to his form while paying him well, BTW, and he takes a discount for that to the Cards for a couple years BEFORE his breakout Cy Young year. He rewards the org for waiting. We now reward his further diligence (sp?) with a contract that rewards his work (but also our risk) with a 5 year deal (never happen for ANY other pitcher) because we see his work ethic and conditioning that we can parlay into a longer term deal with our core that will be adjusted with the offsets in some other contracts coming due and the future market rates.

You all know the "other" injury hand here...

It's not a bad strategy, just a bit more risky for a mid-market team that spends like a larger market franchise. Hope it works out...it's a risk. That said I hope Carp can come through like a Clemens with a future "hometown" discount or deferred payments, (ala Izzy-Edmonds)

Explain how he was not underpaid for 3 seasons...His 2004 season was excellent. He was underpaid for his performance, tremendously. Regardless of pre-signing expectations.

[MaskedMan]

Mixed feelings here.

On the one hand you have a pitcher who was underpaid for 2 years (not 3 as some have suggested), but we took a HUGE chance on a guy who was asking his wife the year after we picked him up, IIRC, that he should retire. We take the chance and let him, has surgery and rehab and get back to his form while paying him well, BTW, and he takes a discount for that to the Cards for a couple years BEFORE his breakout Cy Young year. He rewards the org for waiting. We now reward his further diligence (sp?) with a contract that rewards his work (but also our risk) with a 5 year deal (never happen for ANY other pitcher) because we see his work ethic and conditioning that we can parlay into a longer term deal with our core that will be adjusted with the offsets in some other contracts coming due and the future market rates.

You all know the "other" injury hand here...

It's not a bad strategy, just a bit more risky for a mid-market team that spends like a larger market franchise. Hope it works out...it's a risk. That said I hope Carp can come through like a Clemens with a future "hometown" discount or deferred payments, (ala Izzy-Edmonds)

Explain how he was not underpaid for 3 seasons...His 2004 season was excellent. He was underpaid for his performance, tremendously. Regardless of pre-signing expectations.

Our investment was paid off somewhat that first year even though his postseson was not there because of the nerve injury. That was a slight payback for the HUGE risk we took with him the years before. Would that continue and blossom into 2 straight Cy Young years?...it was a huge risk...and this one is even bigger, IMO, not that Carp would be the only one to give that chance to for his efforts. It's just not the typical Cardinal Way (and shouldn't be) I guarantee, we will not pay over 9.5 mil a year to any pitcher not in the A+++ category. It's stupid 2 do so and not how we build our team, IMO.

[Michael]

IMO Carp's old contract should have no bearing on this discussion. Both sides took a risk when they signed that contract. It just worked out more for the Cards, it could have easily gone the other way.

[vinsanity]

IMO Carp's old contract should have no bearing on this discussion. Both sides took a risk when they signed that contract. It just worked out more for the Cards, it could have easily gone the other way.

True. But if we are so worried about value/durabiltiy two years from now...there's no reason that a 3 year sign won't go down halfway through the first year, or will just suck it up for 3 years straight and you waste allll of that money. If Carp is just good for the next 5 years, not even Cy Caliber you aren't wasting it all. It's the nearly the same risk you take with any contract.

[MaskedMan]

IMO Carp's old contract should have no bearing on this discussion. Both sides took a risk when they signed that contract. It just worked out more for the Cards, it could have easily gone the other way.

except a mid market team dosen't usually take on risk of the magnitude of a project like Carp (+Money) unless they were discounted properly (not so much) for what their risk level was with this promising pitcher that was not given a chance with the club that drafted him for whatever reason...pretty big risk and good scouting, although that was probably questioned when he went doen in 03 with surgery

[TAZ]

Guys (and girls), I don't see what all the fuss is about! We haven't had a pitcher even comparable to Carp since Gibson, and how many years did Gibby pitch like the Ace he was?? (A lot more than 5 years!) Even the "risk" of 5 years, you're only talking about injury, and if he does get injured (knocking on every piece of wood I have right now), he rehabs and comes back the next year and wins come-back player of the year AND the CY.

Now, let's extent Albert for another 15 years at 150 Mil total... not joking! I can't imagine El Hombre playing for another team, it'd be like seeing Musial wearing another uni...