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CardsofSTL wrote:The Cubs are an underperforming team; this is because of multiple factors. The Cardinals were an underperforming team toward the end of the Matheny era; which is a big reason Matheny had to go. His message wasn't working. I think to a certain extent; the same should be said of Maddon. The Cubs have not met expectations for three straight seasons.

The Cards were underperforming for a good chunk of this season. I still shake my head in disbelief that they’ve won 90 games. And Shildt deserves a ton of credit for the turnaround. His message resonates with the players - he is in great part responsible for Wong’s resurgence IMHO.

Freed Roger wrote:

dan_yall wrote:I weirdly hope not. This Cubs core is a fairly likeable group. I need there to be an obnoxious jackass manager to fully fuel my Cub hate.

There is so much meat left on that bone. Maddon's douchery just obscured it.

Ownership is very hateable, too.

dan_yall wrote:

Freed Roger wrote:

dan_yall wrote:I weirdly hope not. This Cubs core is a fairly likeable group. I need there to be an obnoxious jackass manager to fully fuel my Cub hate.

There is so much meat left on that bone. Maddon's douchery just obscured it.

Ownership is very hateable, too.

Noxious, execrable, heinous, and repulsive, as well.

Radbird wrote:

CardsofSTL wrote:The Cubs are an underperforming team; this is because of multiple factors. The Cardinals were an underperforming team toward the end of the Matheny era; which is a big reason Matheny had to go. His message wasn't working. I think to a certain extent; the same should be said of Maddon. The Cubs have not met expectations for three straight seasons.

The Cards were underperforming for a good chunk of this season. I still shake my head in disbelief that they’ve won 90 games. And Shildt deserves a ton of credit for the turnaround. His message resonates with the players - he is in great part responsible for Wong’s resurgence IMHO.

I'd be happy to give Shildt credit for Wong's turnaround, but was there some article or blog or interview or something? Was it not Albert or Wong himself or Wong's brother Harry?

The injury bug did bite them more than us and others but still. It seems like a big lack of depth is what did them in, and that's really on the front office.

The two pitching staffs put up extremely similar numbers (4.24 FIP vs 4.27 FIP, Cards got better results in ERA - 3.80 vs 4.03)...So the two were really similar but look at how much more resources the Cubs had to throw at that pitching staff to accomplish that, not just in terms of dollars but also prospects. The Cards lost Hicks and Reyes, traded away Weaver, moved Carlos to the bullpen, added no starters and still basically matched the Cubs pitching staff this year.

Both bullpens are kind of a patchwork, a combo of pitchers both teams developed and others they acquired. That's kind of how it goes these days. Maybe I'm wrong but it just feels like when the Cards are in a pinch, the guys they call up to fill in (thinking of guys like Helsley, Junior, Cabrera, etc) just seem better than what the Cubs have to fall back on. This is why they signed Kimbrel - to add depth by pushing everyone down 1 notch on the depth chart. That blew up in their face.

They will still be really good with the core they have but I think their inability to develop pitchers is what has held them back lately.

BottenFieldofDreams wrote:

Radbird wrote:

CardsofSTL wrote:The Cubs are an underperforming team; this is because of multiple factors. The Cardinals were an underperforming team toward the end of the Matheny era; which is a big reason Matheny had to go. His message wasn't working. I think to a certain extent; the same should be said of Maddon. The Cubs have not met expectations for three straight seasons.

The Cards were underperforming for a good chunk of this season. I still shake my head in disbelief that they’ve won 90 games. And Shildt deserves a ton of credit for the turnaround. His message resonates with the players - he is in great part responsible for Wong’s resurgence IMHO.

I'd be happy to give Shildt credit for Wong's turnaround, but was there some article or blog or interview or something? Was it not Albert or Wong himself or Wong's brother Harry?

What I meant was Shildt telling Kolton that he was the guy at 2B. Not having to look over his shoulder anytime he had an 0-fer did a lot for his confidence.

Maddon is a dead man walking...

And agree with the comments about his message being stale...it's time for them to part ways.

Indu WangZi wrote:Maddon is a dead man walking...

And agree with the comments about his message being stale...it's time for them to part ways.

With Gabe Kapler being a dead man walking also in Philly is basically a foregone conclusion that Maddon ends up there next year?

JoeMcKim wrote:With Gabe Kapler being a dead man walking also in Philly is basically a foregone conclusion that Maddon ends up there next year?

There's talk the Angels and Padres might go after him. SD would be a logical fit because they have all these prospects coming up, and they would probably love to see 2015-16 Cubs redux.