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MrCrowesGarden wrote:

thrill wrote:

Jocephus wrote:i don't like it. can you imagine the cost if one of these guys became good?

Kyrie's only 25. Not a very good chance that anyone CLE gets in this trade ends up being as good as Kyrie is now.

A DeWitt joke.

Jo, please don't make me have to think about DeWitt and trades outside of BT. I want to remain innocent and free.

thrill wrote:

MrCrowesGarden wrote:

thrill wrote:

Jocephus wrote:i don't like it. can you imagine the cost if one of these guys became good?

Kyrie's only 25. Not a very good chance that anyone CLE gets in this trade ends up being as good as Kyrie is now.

A DeWitt joke.

Jo, please don't make me have to think about DeWitt and trades outside of BT. I want to remain innocent and free.

apologies. we need to keep these forums free of suckage for our children.

thrill wrote:

Jocephus wrote:i don't like it. can you imagine the cost if one of these guys became good?

Kyrie's only 25. Not a very good chance that anyone CLE gets in this trade ends up being as good as Kyrie is now.

Well, if you believe in VORP, Isaiah was better than Kyrie last year.

If you believe in any basketball analytics you should have your head checked since they all come up so short and are so box score oriented.

I am a little puzzled that the C's kicked CLE another pick for the deal, given what PG13 and Butler drew in this market. Granted, Kyrie is younger, but they kicked CLE
--a likely top-5 pick
--a guy who was the 23 pick a year ago
--a two-time All-Star PG for a partial year (injury)
--Crowder, who is a deeply underrated player and guy who is one of like 9 guys in the NBA who are significantly + on both O and D. A guy who next year when LeBron walks and they renounce rights to Thomas, they can move his last two years for almost no money for another high draft pick.

The Cavs did great in the original version of the trade. That they asked for more and that they didn't ask for more that helps LeBron get another finals appearance this year tells you where the franchise is at, I think. They're looking to be blah this year and not win a ring, lose James, lose Thomas, deal Crowder, and play for 2020.

themiddle54 wrote:If you believe in any basketball analytics you should have your head checked since they all come up so short and are so box score oriented.

I am a little puzzled that the C's kicked CLE another pick for the deal, given what PG13 and Butler drew in this market. Granted, Kyrie is younger, but they kicked CLE
--a likely top-5 pick
--a guy who was the 23 pick a year ago
--a two-time All-Star PG for a partial year (injury)
--Crowder, who is a deeply underrated player and guy who is one of like 9 guys in the NBA who are significantly + on both O and D. A guy who next year when LeBron walks and they renounce rights to Thomas, they can move his last two years for almost no money for another high draft pick.

The Cavs did great in the original version of the trade. That they asked for more and that they didn't ask for more that helps LeBron get another finals appearance this year tells you where the franchise is at, I think. They're looking to be blah this year and not win a ring, lose James, lose Thomas, deal Crowder, and play for 2020.

I agree with this post, which is odd because earlier this year we were arguing about whether the Celtics could beat the Cavs in the playoffs and you and I got particularly heated about Kyrie v Isaiah when you cited Isaiah's PER. Maybe I'm imagining that.

So I saw KD's new shoe. I just do t understand how winning the championship everyone knew you were going to win invalidates many of the criticisms leveled against him (and put on the bottom of his shoe). The 'soft' ones, maybe he answered, but the others? Not missing the fish at the bottom of the barrel doesn't suddenly make it a noble, not super easy feat.

thrill wrote:I agree with this post, which is odd because earlier this year we were arguing about whether the Celtics could beat the Cavs in the playoffs and you and I got particularly heated about Kyrie v Isaiah when you cited Isaiah's PER. Maybe I'm imagining that.

I'm generally critical of PER and most of what I've posted about it is probably anti- it's use. Basketball analytics are bad b/c they're box score driven. It's like making a baseball WAR out of H, 2B, 3B, HR, RBI, SB. PER and WS and BPM and VORP are really very bad metrics. I do like ESPN's RPM the best, but it's still far from perfect.

I also don't care for the "he was +9 with Teammate on the floor, but -2 with Teammate off the floor" because usually there are other teammates off the floor too and also there's no baseline to compare. When people talk about Kyrie without Lebron, he's also often without Love and Thompson and is playing with the bench guys on a team with very little depth. It would have been nice to see Kyrie without LeBron but with Crowder. The question isn't "what is CLE's +/- with Kyrie but without LeBron" but rather "What is Kyrie's +/- relative to how another PG would play on this team in this exact rotation." In the vacuum of "without LeBron" he looks bad, but put Thomas or Dame Lillard or Kyle Lowry--guys roughly in Kyrie's range--on that team and how do they do with JR Smith, Channing Frye, etc.? I'd guess Kyrie is as good or better than those guys in that rotation and that "He's minus whatever without LeBron" is misleading and very hollow as a measure. It's like saying "The Cavs are +11 with LeBron on the floor" then discrediting every other player when that +11 goes to the bench. There are a lot of smart people making basketball analytics, so it surprises me that they don't adjust this and that they use those kinds of observations so casually.

Edit, to add..

Take Dragic. His total +/- last year was +67 on a 41-win team. The year before he was +203 (these are just raw points) on a 48-win team. Last year he shot better from 3P, shot the same in total FG%, had an 8% bump in FT%, got to the line a lot more, same rebounds, same assists, increased his steals by over 25%, but his team was worse. His RPM on ESPN went from 2.12 in the prior year, when he was less good, to 0.92 this year. These numbers just don't really reflect everything the player does. If WAR is ~90% accurate in giving us total value, stuff like PER and RPM are maybe not even at 50% accurate yet.

LOL Chandler Parsons (spoiler for language)

[SHOW]

I'm kind of glad Kyrie and LeBron don't like each other. We need more of this in the NBA:

http://deadspin.com/kyrie-irving-brings ... 1818515817

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVXtPGFwqMk

The New York Knicks have agreed to trade 10-time All-Star forward Carmelo Anthony to the Oklahoma City Thunder, league sources told ESPN on Saturday.

The Thunder will send center Enes Kanter, forward Doug McDermott and a 2018 second-round pick (via the Chicago Bulls) to New York, league sources said.

Anthony, 33, will waive his no-trade clause and his $8.1 million trade kicker to accommodate the deal, league sources told ESPN.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/2079 ... ty-thunder