Page 3 of 22
Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 11 17, 7:16 am
by pioneer98
davhern wrote:Theo Epstein is far more than just pretty good. This is silly.
Epstein is good, I won't dispute that. I think "greatest of all time" or whatever pedestal he's going to get put on can be disputed though. As TheTimeIsNow pointed out, the Pirates' highest paid player this year is McCutcheon. He is making the same amount this year as Miguel Montero. Epstein has never had to try to win in a situation like that. Last year, the Cleveland Indians got to within 1 win (1 hit?) of winning it all, and were 22nd in MLB in opening day payroll. They spent $74 million less than the Cubs...For context, the Padres as a team had a $73 million opening day payroll.
Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 11 17, 7:16 am
by jagtrader
The Cubs were mismanaged for years. There was no quick and easy way to fix that roster and farm system. Taking the long route was the smart move. I would want the Cardinals to do the same in that situation. The Cubs haven't batted 1.000 by any means and the sycophants in the media are annoying. But what they accomplished was impressive. If it were easy to acquire franchise players like Rizzo, Russell and Arrieta in trades, then I wish the Cardinals would start doing it.
Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 11 17, 7:39 am
by pioneer98
jagtrader wrote:The Cubs were mismanaged for years. There was no quick and easy way to fix that roster and farm system. Taking the long route was the smart move. I would want the Cardinals to do the same in that situation. The Cubs haven't batted 1.000 by any means and the sycophants in the media are annoying. But what they accomplished was impressive. If it were easy to acquire franchise players like Rizzo, Russell and Arrieta in trades, then I wish the Cardinals would start doing it.
Part of the reason the Cardinals have not made trades like that is because they were contending every season. They could not afford to trade away their equivalent to Samardzija (like Lynn pre-injury maybe?) because they were trying to win. Those were good trades, though, not discounting that.
Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 11 17, 7:56 am
by davhern
Popeye_Card wrote:davhern wrote:Theo Epstein is far more than just pretty good. This is silly.
Is it? He's built some very good teams. He gets credit for not poorly spending most of the vast resources he is handed. And he has built championship teams two different ways--tweaking an already championship-caliber roster in Boston, and a complete re-build in Chicago.
I'm not trying to be a hater. The story of how the Cubs were built is probably very interesting and satisfying to long-suffering Cub fans. Just like we all love reading and watching how awesome Game 6 was. But I don't expect non-Cardinal fans to care much about Game 6. Cub fans shouldn't be too surprised that we don't think the way the Cubs were built was anything special. I doubt they have copies of the Cardinals Way on their bookshelf.
Well, I thought something different was being debated in this thread, but, FWIW, I do own 3 Nights in August. Hell, to me, any of the good behind the scenes books about baseball teams are fun reads. Francona's book, the Jonah Keri Expos book, and Moneyball also fall in here.
Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 11 17, 8:18 am
by Hoot45
Hoot45 wrote:pioneer98 wrote:This is from the description of The Cubs Way on Amazon:
How did a team composed of unknown, young players and supposedly washed-up veterans come together to break the Curse of the Billy Goat?
Revisionist history will work to see that the Cubs first championship in over 100 years is remembered heroically, not as the league tarnishing strategy that it really was. While the Cubs deserve credit for drafting the right guys and not spoiling their development, which is not a guarantee, I will still forever be annoyed by the way they went about it... and not just because I'm a Cub hating Cardinals fan, even though that plays a part.
I'm a season ticket holder that paid to watch a half decade of s*** games from the Cubs. Now as a handful of other teams follow suit I've got even more garbage on the schedule. The "tank hard" strategy is cool when you want to build a championship at all costs but it cheapens the product across the league. I'm actually probably more mad at MLB than Chicago that this is a growing concern, but as a consumer and taxpayer of a publicly subsidized entertainment product I am not thrilled with my money going towards watching teams that are literally trying to lose, and then hearing them brag about how great they are when they finally win.
mul21 wrote:I mean this is all pretty much garbage, but "publicly subsidized"? You're completely insane. The city and state told the Cubs to pound sand and made the entirety of what they're doing as difficult as possible.
Thanks for taking part of my comment out of its context and then saying my post was garbage and calling me insane.
I'm not talking about Wrigley Field or the Ricketts family; I am talking about being a Busch Stadium STH, a taxpayer in the city of St. Louis, and a corporate sponsor. People want to celebrate what the Cubs did like it was some awesome thing, and there are no doubt noble accomplishments along the way, but it comes at the expense of the rest of the league. There is nothing garbage or insane about taking issue with the fact that a quarter of the games I pay for in tickets and taxes are against teams trying their hardest to lose. There's nothing wrong with saying that a league built on public-private partnerships owes it to cities to ensure clubs are always putting the best product they can on the field.
Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 11 17, 9:17 am
by TheTimeIsNow
Theo Epstein's career winning percentage with the Red Sox and Cubs is .539
Theo Epstein's average payroll ranking in that time is 6th in the Majors.
The average 6th highest winning percentage in those years is .570
Therefore, with the money that Theo Epstein is allotted, he has underachieved.
Boom. Stats.
Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 11 17, 9:29 am
by Transmogrified Tiger
This thread isn't really meant for me, but several very quick thoughts:
If drafting well in the Top 5 was easy, the Twins would've been contenders already.
If spending a ton of money to get players was easy, the Dodgers would win more games than the Cubs
If 'tanking' was as surefire a plan to dominance as this thread makes it sound, the Astros would run the American League
Since the start of 2015, the Cubs have won 16 more games than anyone else in baseball, and they've made an NLCS and won a world series. They are very good in a way that rarely happens, and they currently appear set to be good for a while. I won't argue the relative 'how great' that makes them or Epstein as the architect because that's not really an interesting or worthwhile conversation, and as someone who has lived through many years of media extolling the greatness of the Cardinals I get the frustration it causes, but what they've done is certainly worthy of the coverage it has gotten.
Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 11 17, 10:07 am
by Popeye_Card
What if you draft in the top 5 AND spend like the Dodgers AND tank like the Astros? Wouldn't you think that gives you a lot of advantage over teams that can only do one or two of the three?
Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 11 17, 10:43 am
by Transmogrified Tiger
Popeye_Card wrote:What if you draft in the top 5 AND spend like the Dodgers AND tank like the Astros? Wouldn't you think that gives you a lot of advantage over teams that can only do one or two of the three?
Marginally, but not 15 games better than the field over a 2 year span. The Cubs don't spend like the Dodgers and didn't 'tank' as hard as the Astros either.
Re: The Cubs Way/The Plan
Posted: April 11 17, 10:48 am
by TimeForGuinness
Baseball Smarts / No Money = Oakland A's
No Baseball Smarts / Money = NY Yankees
No Baseball Smarts / No Money = San Diego Padres
Baseball Smarts / Money = Epstein's Red Sox & Cubs