If Gleyber Torres wins the Yankees a title, then we can talk, until then I'm good with how things turned out.
The Cubs won the division by 17.5 games that year, and Chapman wasn't really that good in the post-season. It's an extreme stretch to say that he won the Cubs a title. In fact, he did everything he could to hand Game 7 over to the Indians, if you recall.
There would've been no Game 7 if Chapman hadn't come in and gotten an 8-out save in Game 5, which the Cubs won by 1 run. And even after he gave up the tying HR in Game 7, he went out and pitched a 1-2-3 9th inning to enable the Cubs to win the game in the 10th. (Allowing him to pitch the 9th was an unbelievable move that caused me to believe Joe Maddon may have actually had an in-game stroke, but whatever, he got the outs.)
He also got a 3-out save in the NLDS clincher in SF (right after the Cubs' 4-run rally in the 9th) that may not have been so easy if one of the Cubs' lesser relievers had pitched the inning. He's as responsible for that title as any player.
He was a so-so reliever in the playoffs for them, at best. A lessor reliever could have done the same thing, and they'd still have Torres.
It's a real stretch to say that they won the WS because of the Torres trade.
Socnorb11 wrote:He was a so-so reliever in the playoffs for them, at best. A lessor reliever could have done the same thing, and they'd still have Torres.
It's a real stretch to say that they won the WS because of the Torres trade.
He had a 2.08 ERA in the 2016 postseason, Game 7 included, and until Game 7 had given up exactly one non-garbage time run in the playoffs (blown save in NLDS Game 3). He struck out 18 and walked 5 in 13 innings that postseason. His 8-out save in Game 5 (4 K, 0 BB) while holding a one-run lead the entire time with the season on the line is unequivocally among the most clutch relief pitching performances in baseball history. You and I have very different definitions of 'so-so'.
Socnorb11 wrote:He was a so-so reliever in the playoffs for them, at best. A lessor reliever could have done the same thing, and they'd still have Torres.
It's a real stretch to say that they won the WS because of the Torres trade.
He had a 2.08 ERA in the 2016 postseason, Game 7 included, and until Game 7 had given up exactly one non-garbage time run in the playoffs (blown save in NLDS Game 3). He struck out 18 and walked 5 in 13 innings that postseason. His 8-out save in Game 5 (4 K, 0 BB) while holding a one-run lead the entire time with the season on the line is unequivocally among the most clutch relief pitching performances in baseball history. You and I have very different definitions of 'so-so'.
Chapman was a beast. I thought his arm might fall off the way that Maddon used him.
I love counterfactuals.
Here is one if only Chapman had better aim with his gun or was a little better at strangling his girlfriend. Then the trade doesn't get made. Chapman is in jail. Cubs don't win WS. Torres would have still been a Cub. Then they would not have had to have Russell around (Cubs get good PR for not employing domestic assaulters). They probably win the division the last two years with Torres. They go toe to toe with the Dodgers, win the WS in 2018. They have a terrifying dynasty, Maddon is around for another decade, and cards fans are bemoaning not making the playoffs in 4 years and staring into the teeth of the evil cubs empire who has won 4 straight division titles.
So as a cards fan, I guess I am glad that Chapman isn't that good at choking or shooting because it could be much, much worse.
Socnorb11 wrote:He was a so-so reliever in the playoffs for them, at best. A lessor reliever could have done the same thing, and they'd still have Torres.
It's a real stretch to say that they won the WS because of the Torres trade.
He had a 2.08 ERA in the 2016 postseason, Game 7 included, and until Game 7 had given up exactly one non-garbage time run in the playoffs (blown save in NLDS Game 3). He struck out 18 and walked 5 in 13 innings that postseason. His 8-out save in Game 5 (4 K, 0 BB) while holding a one-run lead the entire time with the season on the line is unequivocally among the most clutch relief pitching performances in baseball history. You and I have very different definitions of 'so-so'.
That's not correct.
Baseball Reference and Wikipedia both say that he had a 2.70 ERA in the NLDS, a 3.86 ERA in the NLCS and a 3.52 ERA in the WS (3.60 ERA combined for the entire post-season). It shows that he pitched 15.2 innings, and allowed 6 earned runs.
Socnorb11 wrote:He was a so-so reliever in the playoffs for them, at best. A lessor reliever could have done the same thing, and they'd still have Torres.
It's a real stretch to say that they won the WS because of the Torres trade.
He had a 2.08 ERA in the 2016 postseason, Game 7 included, and until Game 7 had given up exactly one non-garbage time run in the playoffs (blown save in NLDS Game 3). He struck out 18 and walked 5 in 13 innings that postseason. His 8-out save in Game 5 (4 K, 0 BB) while holding a one-run lead the entire time with the season on the line is unequivocally among the most clutch relief pitching performances in baseball history. You and I have very different definitions of 'so-so'.
That's not correct.
Baseball Reference and Wikipedia both say that he had a 2.70 ERA in the NLDS, a 3.86 ERA in the NLCS and a 3.52 ERA in the WS (3.60 ERA combined for the entire post-season). It shows that he pitched 15.2 innings, and allowed 6 earned runs.
That's extremely mediocre for a reliever.
Well, it appears I misread the ESPN.com game logs, then. I'll take the L there. (He had a 2.08 ERA in postseason games played in October, which was where my confusion was. Games 6 and 7 were played in November and jacked up his total.)
That said, the part about not giving up any runs that mattered (prior to Game 7) outside of NLDS Game 3 is still true. And while I don't know if the rest of the Cub bullpen in Game 5 would've gotten 8 outs if Chapman hadn't done it, the fact that I don't have to wonder about it means the trade was worth it. Like I said, if the Yankees win it all with Torres playing a big role, then we can revisit, but the Cubs made that deal, Chapman got some huge outs, and they won the title. The rest is semantics.
