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Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

Posted: December 15 07, 10:06 am
by Fat Strat
Fat, maybe you can help me see the internal consistency of moves where we are willing to pay market rates for low-impact veterans like a deficient shortstop and a good but luxury middle reliever because we want to compete every year, but not on a borderline hall of fame outfielder hoping for a bounceback year, because we need to free up payroll and/or get younger. I freely admit I may be missing the big-picture plan here, sometimes I look at the puzzle pieces and for the life of me I can't imagine how they fit together even though I'm looking right at the jigs that go together, and maybe that's happening here.
First, I'm not going to try and justify the Izturis signing. Just not going to do it. All I can really say is that his salary is meaningless and the other options would still have resulted with an offensive hole at SS. Agreed? Eck, Everett, Izturis, Uribe... none would have impacted this club offensively, defensively is different, but three of them are solid defenders, and two of them weren't readily available to us (Uribe and Everett).

Second, you want consistency, but it's almost like it has to be one way or the other. Why does moving Edmonds hurt us this season? Why aren't we going to turn the salary saved into an impact player, whether that's acquired through FA or trade? After all, it's not even Christmas yet. Little happened at the Winter Meetings, and as we're seeing now, teams are starting to show an increased willingness to move players now that the market is more defined.

Why isn't the Edmonds trade an effort to stock up the system to allow us to make a move for someone like Bedard shortly? Why doesn't it allow us to move on Silva now instead of settling for Colon? Why doesn't it allow us to trade for or sign an impact OF'er?

I just don't see how Edmonds was going to provide much for this club next season besides some sentimental value to fans. It won't hurt ticket sales. Fans still come for Albert. Even if Edmonds bounces back to a 100 OPS season that's production which is easily replacable, and quite possibly replacable from within.

It seems like a lot of you are simply unwiling to see any of these moves in a reasonable light (not necessarily you, Steve). You see Pineiro as trash instead of as a cheapish 4th/5th starter who's a 3rd/4th starting until Carpenter gets healthy. You see Springer as indicative of the old-boy-network that loves veterans instead of the impact RP who had an era+ of 200 and who signed for less than many lesser RP's are getting. You see Taguchi and Miles as payroll dumps instead of as part of the youth movement you coveted when you wanted Antonetti as your GM. You see the Eckstein arbitration as an inexcusable mistake for Mo instead of as a way to avoid being forced to pay a MI'er worth $4 million the $8 million he'll win in arb.

All I can really say is wait and see.

Now, about Freese. He'll start in AA, and if he hits well, could easily wind up in AAA at midseason next year. This is a guy that COULD be ready for the majors in '09. That's not too shabby. His bat is clearly what we wanted here, as the only things that have held him down in MiLB rankings is his questionable glove and his age. I personally don't care much about age, and most reports are suggesting that his defense has improved to where he's a strong candidate to stay at 3rd in the majors. He's right there with Craig and Hamilton as our only two infield power hitting options coming up through the system. He's a good though not great pickup, and I think that we'll be pleased with how this trade works out. He isn't a A+ ball pitcher. He's a guy that could move very rapidly if he continues to hit, and the Cards have a very aggressive promotion strategy.

Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

Posted: December 15 07, 10:10 am
by TimeForGuinness
Fat Strat wrote:
Fat, maybe you can help me see the internal consistency of moves where we are willing to pay market rates for low-impact veterans like a deficient shortstop and a good but luxury middle reliever because we want to compete every year, but not on a borderline hall of fame outfielder hoping for a bounceback year, because we need to free up payroll and/or get younger. I freely admit I may be missing the big-picture plan here, sometimes I look at the puzzle pieces and for the life of me I can't imagine how they fit together even though I'm looking right at the jigs that go together, and maybe that's happening here.
First, I'm not going to try and justify the Izturis signing. Just not going to do it. All I can really say is that his salary is meaningless and the other options would still have resulted with an offensive hole at SS. Agreed? Eck, Everett, Izturis, Uribe... none would have impacted this club offensively, defensively is different, but three of them are solid defenders, and two of them weren't freely available to us (Uribe and Everett).

Second, you want consistency, but it's almost like it has to be one way or the other. Why does moving Edmonds hurt us this season? Why aren't we going to turn the salary saved into an impact player, whether that's acquired through FA or trade? After all, it's not even Christmas yet. Little happened at the Winter Meetings, and as we're seeing now, teams are starting to show an increased willingness to move players now that the market is more defined.

Why isn't the Edmonds trade an effort to stock up the system to allow us to make a move for someone like Bedard shortly? Why doesn't it allow us to move on Silva now instead of settling for Colon? Why doesn't it allow us to trade for or sign an impact OF'er?

I just don't see how Edmonds was going to provide much for this club next season besides some sentimental value to fans. It won't hurt ticket sales. Fans still come for Albert. Even if Edmonds bounces back to a 100 OPS season that's production which is easily replacable, and quite possibly replacable from within.

It seems like a lot of you are simply unwiling to see any of these moves in a reasonable light (not necessarily you, Steve). You see Pineiro as trash instead of as a cheapish 4th/5th starter who's a 3rd/4th starting until Carpenter gets healthy. You see Springer as indicative of the old-boy-network that loves veterans instead of the impact RP who had an era+ of 200 and who signed for less than many lesser RP's are getting. You see Taguchi and Miles as payroll dumps instead of as part of the youth movement you coveted when you wanted Antonetti as your GM. You see the Eckstein arbitration as an inexcusable mistake for Mo instead of as a way to avoid being forced to pay a MI'er worth $4 million the $8 million he'll win in arb.

All I can really say is wait and see.

Now, about Freese. He'll start in AA, and if he hits well, could easily wind up in AAA at midseason next year. This is a guy that COULD be ready for the majors in '09. That's not too shabby. His bat is clearly what we wanted here, as the only things that have held him down in MiLB rankings is his questionable glove and his age. I personally don't care much about age, and most reports are suggesting that his defense has improved to where he's a strong candidate to stay at 3rd in the majors. He's right there with Craig and Hamilton as our only two infield power hitting options coming up through the system. He's a good though not great pickup, and I think that we'll be pleased with how this trade works out. He isn't a A+ ball pitcher. He's a guy that could move very rapidly if he continues to hit, and the Cards have a very aggressive promotion strategy.
Excellent post.

Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

Posted: December 15 07, 10:10 am
by BW23
clevername wrote:
Go_Crazy_Folks wrote:If anything, Edmonds could have taught him for a year which would be a bigger gain than the prospect we got.
other than the sentimental reasons, that's the biggest problem I have with the trade. Even if Rasmus came up and took the starting job from Jimmy or platooned with him, he could have gained quite a bit of knowledge, advice, and leadership from arguably the best CF of the past decade. That may not have tangible worth...but I think the worth is there.
That's the biggest reason I thought they should keep him. And it wasn't just Rasmus. I think Ankiel won't be as good as he could have been.

Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

Posted: December 15 07, 10:11 am
by clake
Why can't money "saved today" be spent tomorrow?

Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

Posted: December 15 07, 10:13 am
by st.lewis11
OK, Jimmy may not have had alot of "value" numbers/money-wise anymore, but I'm still upset over this....I've been a proud Cardinal fan since my days as a little kid in a small Southern Illinois town rooting for Brock/Gibby/Simba while listening to Buck/Shannon......to me, the Cardinals have held a place in my heart, we've had special players throughout the years, and Jimmy was one of them.
Sure, this deal makes some sense "business-wise", but dammit, I really wanted the chance to see Jimmy go through a retirement tour as a Cardinal.....sure, now he'll get a standing ovation and/or ceremony when visiting as a Padre, but this deal robs fans from attending games throughout this season for the purpose of seeing Jimmy one last time in a birds on the bat jersey.
Yeah, I want to see this team improve and get younger, but besides watching a winning ball club, I also treasure other things as a fan, like appreciating special moments, memories, and players.
Some of you guys can call my feelings on this as sentimental/wishy-washy all you want; but let me ask you this:there was substantial time/dollars invested in Ankiel, but didn't his homer in his first game back make it worth it?..even if he wouldn't have panned out after that great moment, special memories like that, and ones from Jimmy is why I love this game.

Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

Posted: December 15 07, 10:15 am
by TimeForGuinness
st.lewis11 wrote:OK, Jimmy may not have had alot of "value" numbers/money-wise anymore, but I'm still upset over this....I've been a proud Cardinal fan since my days as a little kid in a small Southern Illinois town rooting for Brock/Gibby/Simba while listening to Buck/Shannon......to me, the Cardinals have held a place in my heart, we've had special players throughout the years, and Jimmy was one of them.
Sure, this deal makes some sense "business-wise", but dammit, I really wanted the chance to see Jimmy go through a retirement tour as a Cardinal.....sure, now he'll get a standing ovation and/or ceremony when visiting as a Padre, but this deal robs fans from attending games throughout this season for the purpose of seeing Jimmy one last time in a birds on the bat jersey.
Yeah, I want to see this team improve and get younger, but besides watching a winning ball club, I also treasure other things as a fan, like appreciating special moments, memories, and players.
Some of you guys can call my feelings on this as sentimental/wishy-washy all you want; but let me ask you this:there was substantial time/dollars invested in Ankiel, but didn't his homer in his first game back make it worth it?..even if he wouldn't have panned out after that great moment, special memories like that, and ones from Jimmy is why I love this game.
Excellent post as well

Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

Posted: December 15 07, 10:16 am
by Go_Crazy_Folks
Fat Strat wrote: It seems like a lot of you are simply unwiling to see any of these moves in a reasonable light (not necessarily you, Steve). You see Pineiro as trash instead of as a cheapish 4th/5th starter who's a 3rd/4th starting until Carpenter gets healthy. You see Springer as indicative of the old-boy-network that loves veterans instead of the impact RP who had an era+ of 200 and who signed for less than many lesser RP's are getting. You see Taguchi and Miles as payroll dumps instead of as part of the youth movement you coveted when you wanted Antonetti as your GM. You see the Eckstein arbitration as an inexcusable mistake for Mo instead of as a way to avoid being forced to pay a MI'er worth $4 million the $8 million he'll win in arb.
I agree w/ everything you said there. I was content w/ all of those moves, actually lobbied for Springer and Franklin returning. Even Izturis I didn't mind that much. I was hoping we could find a young SS somewhere, but not sure what was out there via trade, so Cesar fits.

But w/ that said, I didn't think, and surely those in the front office didn't think, this would be a good Cardinals team this year. Yeah its nice to pickup a prospect, but he's no guarantee. Why not stick w/ Jimmy for one year and give fans a chance to watch one of the best Cardinals of the era play out one more year. Financially, he wasn't hindering us.

My only hope is a trade for a solid prospect or young MLB player gets worked out down the line. I'm willing to wait out the youth movement, but it doesn't seem like we are really starting one. We are just in a flip flop strategy. Plus I just saw the trade news this morning, so maybe I'll have a clearer head later today.

Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

Posted: December 15 07, 10:18 am
by Joe Wells
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Hokay. I've slept on it, I've taken a deep breath... and I'm OK with it. I would have liked to watch Jimmy Ballgame take his farewell tour around the league, but this is probably best. Now there's no one standing in Rasmus' way whenever it looks like he's ready to come up. Jimmy can have another shot at some hardware. It saves some money (we'll see how they spend it).
lboros wrote:the trade is bitter medicine, but it's necessary. the cards should have let edmonds walk last year, or simply picked up his one-year option; the extension was a mistake, and they're acknowledging as much. they're getting on with the overdue business of letting go of the past. since taking the reins mozeliak has jettisoned five position players from the 2006 championship team --- all of them over age 30 --- and created opportunities for younger players who might or might not pan out. it's not pretty, it's not exciting, it's not fun. but it's necessary.
Yup.

Good luck, Jimmy. Come back after you've hung 'em up.

Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

Posted: December 15 07, 10:19 am
by fanforever
Does anyone stop to think that maybe they will Give Albert Pujols a new contract with the additional savings?

Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

Posted: December 15 07, 10:20 am
by Go_Crazy_Folks
st.lewis11 wrote:OK, Jimmy may not have had alot of "value" numbers/money-wise anymore, but I'm still upset over this....I've been a proud Cardinal fan since my days as a little kid in a small Southern Illinois town rooting for Brock/Gibby/Simba while listening to Buck/Shannon......to me, the Cardinals have held a place in my heart, we've had special players throughout the years, and Jimmy was one of them.
Sure, this deal makes some sense "business-wise", but dammit, I really wanted the chance to see Jimmy go through a retirement tour as a Cardinal.....sure, now he'll get a standing ovation and/or ceremony when visiting as a Padre, but this deal robs fans from attending games throughout this season for the purpose of seeing Jimmy one last time in a birds on the bat jersey.
Yeah, I want to see this team improve and get younger, but besides watching a winning ball club, I also treasure other things as a fan, like appreciating special moments, memories, and players.
Some of you guys can call my feelings on this as sentimental/wishy-washy all you want; but let me ask you this:there was substantial time/dollars invested in Ankiel, but didn't his homer in his first game back make it worth it?..even if he wouldn't have panned out after that great moment, special memories like that, and ones from Jimmy is why I love this game.
Very good post. Just a strange time to be a Cardinal fan. I want to believe they have the best interests in hand, but it seems a little cloud at the moment.

To think, the Royals may have more "active" talent on their club then the Cards right now.