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That's really odd the growth of mortgage debt was almost completely linear until 1999. You would think it would bounce around with the economy in the 80's and early 2000's. I'm rather skeptical of its authenticity. It's like that blue line is a complete fabrication and shouldn't even be there and the actual mortgage line should be superimposed behind the trend lines. And 2008 trend line to WHAT? When was that graph made? You're talking about a fourteen year sample (and why fourteen years, why not more?) vs. a one to two year sample, completely ignoring 1998 through 2007. If that blue line is real then there should be a trendline for '98-'07 added to the graph with a much greater positive slope than the '82-'97 line. Why isn't it there? I'm not sure what real conclusions should be drawn from that chart.

docellis wrote:What if each nation redistributed their wealth - equally. Would the US be better off or worse?

Do you mean if every nation was internally communist or if Earth was a communist world government with the United States as a specific zone?

I think Richard Dreyfus (as Dick Cheney) pretty much sums it up at the 23 second mark:

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I will miss America's bus.

And I mean that, too. I think we will look back at Sept 10, 2001 as the last moment of the American Era on the global stage. I don't even believe our second act will be as graceful as, say, England's - a stable but mid-tier world power but not the dominant sociopolitical force of yesteryear. The American mindset is to continue on as if we're still in charge, spending trillions on foolish wars while letting the drivers of any economy (infrastructure and manufacturing investment) rot away, and consistently punishing the poor and middle class at the expense of the corporations and corporatist elite, who, when the cards hit the table, will not even be American. They're registered in the Caymans, and will be happy to switch currencies when the time comes and continue with business as usual.

Or, I'm being paranoid. Who knows.

heyzeus wrote:I will miss America's bus.

And I mean that, too. I think we will look back at Sept 10, 2001 as the last moment of the American Era on the global stage. I don't even believe our second act will be as graceful as, say, England's - a stable but mid-tier world power but not the dominant sociopolitical force of yesteryear. The American mindset is to continue on as if we're still in charge, spending trillions on foolish wars while letting the drivers of any economy (infrastructure and manufacturing investment) rot away, and consistently punishing the poor and middle class at the expense of the corporations and corporatist elite, who, when the cards hit the table, will not even be American. They're registered in the Caymans, and will be happy to switch currencies when the time comes and continue with business as usual.

Or, I'm being paranoid. Who knows.

http://www.amazon.com/Next-100-Years-Fo ... 038551705X

heyzeus wrote:I will miss America's bus.

And I mean that, too. I think we will look back at Sept 10, 2001 as the last moment of the American Era on the global stage. I don't even believe our second act will be as graceful as, say, England's - a stable but mid-tier world power but not the dominant sociopolitical force of yesteryear. The American mindset is to continue on as if we're still in charge, spending trillions on foolish wars while letting the drivers of any economy (infrastructure and manufacturing investment) rot away, and consistently punishing the poor and middle class at the expense of the corporations and corporatist elite, who, when the cards hit the table, will not even be American. They're registered in the Caymans, and will be happy to switch currencies when the time comes and continue with business as usual.

Or, I'm being paranoid. Who knows.

i think thats well said zeus. some could argue that bin laden wasn't just trying to kill innocent civilians, but to completely upset the american way of thinking and make the U$ make reactionary decisions that take the whole nation down, not just two towers.

The only glimmer of hope I see is that this Murdoch mess gets legs and people begin to push back. If we are going to get out of this mess, the little people have to stop aligning themselves with the monied interests that want their status quo on the backs of everyone else.

Not to say what we are going to go through will not be painful - there will be pain no matter what course is taken. The amounts of debt that have to be dealt with are absolutely staggering. The best we can do is to see justice done to EVERYONE involved - the rich, the middle, the poor, the young, the retired, the college kids, the wage earners... But we need to clear the decks, and go from there.

IMO.

I would agree that we're past America's peak in global power.

TheoSqua wrote:I would agree that we're past America's peak in global power.

Everybody should know this by now. The reaction of the wealthy and powerful is to lock it all down now -create a plantation/class system where the wealthy have their property secured for now and generations to come. Lower class stays lower. and the middle class's only mobility is downward. This approach is not sustainable.

I agree it is a cyclical thing with nations' rise and falls. We should be able to learn something from history-such as the old Europe financial powers (England, the Dutch etc) . It is inevitable that taxation of the wealthy s/b part of the equation going forward, and some socialistic practices rise in America.

Only so many pacifiers, nationalism, fear, and fake religiosity can be sold to the lower/middle classes before they resume acting in their own best economic interests. It is only a question of time before a rebalancing occurs in the US. Though I may never see it in my life.

i think its funny when wall street says that not increasing the debt limit would be disastrous

I'm ambivalent about all this. I don't see the United States adjusting well to its decline in economic and military preeminence, which is a shame, because the country doesn't have to be the largest economy to be an exceptionally successful and influential economy. For instance, it's not clear if countries such as China will be able to build institutions (such as a higher education system) that will be comparable to those in the U.S. That's their challenge.

I really think that the belief in American exceptionalism (which was conceived as a double-edged sword--a calling, not merely a just desert) has become a profound curse--a source of arrogance rather than a challenge for self-reflection. The last ten years may turn out to be a painful missed opportunity to adjust to a world in which the U.S. isn't so central.

Amen sigh. You said it better than I did.