Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

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fulldeck
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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin: The Thread

Post by fulldeck »

clement wrote: Any Democrat who challenges Palin on her daughter's pregnancy is indeed going into the gutter and should be called on it, although if someone points out the importance of sex education and birth control and ways to prevent unplanned pregnancies (things that apparently Palin opposes) these are issues that are fair to discuss.
Here is a little more info on her thoughts on this.

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/ ... ssues.aspx

http://poligazette.com/2008/09/02/palin ... n-kind-of/
Her answer to the question “will you support funding for abstinence-until-marriage education instead of for explicit sex-education programs, school-based clinics, and the distribution of contraceptives in schools?” is potentially controversial to progressives and to some moderate, independent voters, while it will be celebrated by social conservatives.

The answer was short and to the point: “Yes, explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support.”

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin: The Thread

Post by Fat Strat »

Fat - I think people are smarter than you're giving them credit for. You can't stand up on that podium and say that people are tired of yelling and implore about wanting to treat your opponent with respect while sending up speeches like those delivered by Lieberman and Giuliani at your convention. I know it's his strategy to let all his surrogates do the nastiness, but people know it's his strategy.
You might be right, I guess it's yet to be seen, and I'll readily admit that I'm talking in theory and opinion. At the same time, I don't think we should overestimate the number of people who watched Guiliani, Romney, or Leiberman and were still undecided. I don't have the numbers, but Palin and McCain were the main, national broadcasts. Leiberman as well, I suppose, but I missed his speech and don't really know how much mud he slung (and if you'll notice, I never included him in my posts because I didn't know what he said). If any one has the numbers on the non-network broadcasts and ratings, I would be interested in seeing them.

Speaking of people being smarter than we give them credit for, couldn't you also say that people are smart enough to know that mud doesn't a candidate make? After all, McCain and Obama have been pretty much above board. Some jabs here and there, but nothing outlandish. You heard plenty of policy in both speeches. You heard plenty of personal story. You heard respect for both sides and a willingness to work together. At the end of the day, moderates and undecideds vote for a person and policies, not for a ticket or a party (which is where the mud is coming from on both sides). When they get into the ballot box they're not going to be thinking about Romney's lies. They're going to be thinking about tax policies and which candidate pushed their buttons.

That's not to say that the mud doesn't have an effect, but in some ways, with both sides slinging, it probably evens out, unless one party can take another candidate out. After all, I don't think that Kerry lost because of the Swiftboat Vets. He lost because he had trouble connecting with, well, just about anyone.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin: The Thread

Post by JCShutout »

Fat Strat wrote:
Fat - I think people are smarter than you're giving them credit for. You can't stand up on that podium and say that people are tired of yelling and implore about wanting to treat your opponent with respect while sending up speeches like those delivered by Lieberman and Giuliani at your convention. I know it's his strategy to let all his surrogates do the nastiness, but people know it's his strategy.
You might be right, I guess it's yet to be seen, and I'll readily admit that I'm talking in theory and opinion. At the same time, I don't think we should overestimate the number of people who watched Guiliani, Romney, or Leiberman and were still undecided. I don't have the numbers, but Palin and McCain were the main, national broadcasts. Leiberman as well, I suppose, but I missed his speech and don't really know how much mud he slung (and if you'll notice, I never included him in my posts because I didn't know what he said). If any one has the numbers on the non-network broadcasts and ratings, I would be interested in seeing them.

Speaking of people being smarter than we give them credit for, couldn't you also say that people are smart enough to know that mud doesn't a candidate make? After all, McCain and Obama have been pretty much above board. Some jabs here and there, but nothing outlandish. You heard plenty of policy in both speeches. You heard plenty of personal story. You heard respect for both sides and a willingness to work together. At the end of the day, moderates and undecideds vote for a person and policies, not for a ticket or a party (which is where the mud is coming from on both sides). When they get into the ballot box they're not going to be thinking about Romney's lies. They're going to be thinking about tax policies and which candidate pushed their buttons.

That's not to say that the mud doesn't have an effect, but in some ways, with both sides slinging, it probably evens out, unless one party can take another candidate out. After all, I don't think that Kerry lost because of the Swiftboat Vets. He lost because he had trouble connecting with, well, just about anyone.
I don't know. I heard a lot of conspiracy theories from my Dad this year about how Obama is really a secret muslim connected to Al Queda.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin: The Thread

Post by Fat Strat »

I don't know. I heard a lot of conspiracy theories from my Dad this year about how Obama is really a secret muslim connected to Al Queda.
Is your dad a moderate or an undecided? I'd be willing to bet that he had already decided he wasn't going to vote for Obama before he learned the truth about Obama being a muslim terorist.

Mud energizes the base and motivates them to get out to the polls.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin: The Thread

Post by Fat Strat »

pop_haines wrote:
Fat Strat wrote:
That's not to say that the mud doesn't have an effect, but in some ways, with both sides slinging, it probably evens out, unless one party can take another candidate out. After all, I don't think that Kerry lost because of the Swiftboat Vets. He lost because he had trouble connecting with, well, just about anyone.
The Swifties caused serious damage (Jerome Corsi, you class act, you),
but John Kerry ran one of the worst campaigns I have ever seen.

I still get angry when I think about it.
Who really knows? It's hypothetical, but I bet that if Kerry had Obama's personality he would have won, despite SwiftBoat vets for truth. Likewise, if Kerry had Bush's campaign managers I think he would have won despite the Swifties.

Hard to say, really.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin: The Thread

Post by Socnorb11 »

Fat Strat wrote: Speaking of people being smarter than we give them credit for, couldn't you also say that people are smart enough to know that mud doesn't a candidate make? After all, McCain and Obama have been pretty much above board. Some jabs here and there, but nothing outlandish. You heard plenty of policy in both speeches. You heard plenty of personal story. You heard respect for both sides and a willingness to work together. At the end of the day, moderates and undecideds vote for a person and policies, not for a ticket or a party (which is where the mud is coming from on both sides). When they get into the ballot box they're not going to be thinking about Romney's lies. They're going to be thinking about tax policies and which candidate pushed their buttons.

That's not to say that the mud doesn't have an effect, but in some ways, with both sides slinging, it probably evens out, unless one party can take another candidate out. After all, I don't think that Kerry lost because of the Swiftboat Vets. He lost because he had trouble connecting with, well, just about anyone.
I wouldn't be so sure about how informed the voters are, Fat. Unfortunately, when Palin makes snarky comments about Obama's community service being irrelevant and trivial, many voters take her at her word. When McCain proclaims that Obama is going to raise taxes, many voters don't take the time to do the research to realize that Obama's tax plan will almost exclusively only hurt the richest of the rich. When Giuliani proclaims "how dare they assume that a woman can't be a VP and still love her children", people assume he's talking about Obama, since Giuliani conventiently forgot to tell us who this "they" person is. When Palin says "this is a man who's authored two memoirs, but not a single major law or even a reform, not even in the state Senate", people assume that it's true, rather than stopping to consider that she may be misinformed.

And you keep talking about this stuff going both ways, but mud-slinging truly wasn't the theme at the Dem. convention, but clearly was at the Republican convention. It's really not going both ways, despite your assumption that it probably is.

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin: The Thread

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin: The Thread

Post by Fat Strat »

Unfortunately, when Palin makes snarky comments about Obama's community service being irrelevant and trivial, many voters take her at her word. When McCain proclaims that Obama is going to raise taxes, many voters don't take the time to do the research to realize that Obama's tax plan will almost exclusively only hurt the richest of the rich.
You're still claiming this only goes one way? When Obama says, "my opponent will.... In my plan, I'll..." do you think Joe and Cindy Moderate are researching the ins-and-outs of McCain's plan either? You think that Obama is perfectly representing McCain's plans in his speeches?

And don't say that he hasn't compared his plan to McCain's. He most certainly has. He's spent a great deal of time doing it. That's not mud slinging. That's simple policy debate. It's one-sided, but no one is blaming anyone for publicly representing their side over their opponents.
And you keep talking about this stuff going both ways, but mud-slinging truly wasn't the theme at the Dem. convention, but clearly was at the Republican convention. It's really not going both ways, despite your assumption that it probably is.
You keep talking about the convention as if it's some vacuum and that nothing before that matters. As if we're voting tomorrow and we have to base our votes on the how well the "other" convention speakers represented their party. My point all along is that mud has and will be slung by many people on both sides. Lots of people have said lots of things about both candidates, and lots of the time it's not flattering. One parties definition of "truth" is another parties definition of "inflammatory". This will go on and on, so much so that it's going to be difficult for one party to gain the advantage over the other because of mud slinging.


Here's an example...
When Palin says "this is a man who's authored two memoirs, but not a single major law or even a reform, not even in the state Senate", people assume that it's true, rather than stopping to consider that she may be misinformed.
Has he himself personally authored a major law or reform? (Honest question, I don't know and don't really care, for that matter.)

Because if he hasn't then that's the truth, despite you viewing it as an attack. It might even be a misleading statement, but no moreso than one that you've thrown out again and again on the forum and one that has been bandied about by dems for awhile... "McCain has voted with the president 90% of the time".

Have you looked up what % Obama has voted with the president? After all, a large portion of votes in Congress are unanimous in support of a resolution or proclamation, (i.e. congratulating the Jayhawks on the national championship, etc.)

So, your statement is a truth, though a misleading one, and it can be construed as an attack by the other side. And on and on the merry-go-round goes...

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin: The Thread

Post by Socnorb11 »

Fat Strat wrote:
Unfortunately, when Palin makes snarky comments about Obama's community service being irrelevant and trivial, many voters take her at her word. When McCain proclaims that Obama is going to raise taxes, many voters don't take the time to do the research to realize that Obama's tax plan will almost exclusively only hurt the richest of the rich.
You're still claiming this only goes one way? When Obama says, "my opponent will.... In my plan, I'll..." do you think Joe and Cindy Moderate are researching the ins-and-outs of McCain's plan either? You think that Obama is perfectly representing McCain's plans in his speeches?

And don't say that he hasn't compared his plan to McCain's. He most certainly has. He's spent a great deal of time doing it. That's not mud slinging. That's simple policy debate. It's one-sided, but no one is blaming anyone for publicly representing their side over their opponents.
And you keep talking about this stuff going both ways, but mud-slinging truly wasn't the theme at the Dem. convention, but clearly was at the Republican convention. It's really not going both ways, despite your assumption that it probably is.
You keep talking about the convention as if it's some vacuum and that nothing before that matters. As if we're voting tomorrow and we have to base our votes on the how well the "other" convention speakers represented their party. My point all along is that mud has and will be slung by many people on both sides. Lots of people have said lots of things about both candidates, and lots of the time it's not flattering. One parties definition of "truth" is another parties definition of "inflammatory". This will go on and on, so much so that it's going to be difficult for one party to gain the advantage over the other because of mud slinging.

And I continue to ask you to give me examples of Obama and Biden making snarky, inflammatory, condescending remarks about their opponents. Obama's colleagues haven't done said or done anything nearly as inflammatory as what we saw this week. You're surely not going to deny that this week has been a childish display of mockery on the part of the Republicans, are you?

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Re: Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin: The Thread

Post by JCShutout »

Fat Strat wrote:
I don't know. I heard a lot of conspiracy theories from my Dad this year about how Obama is really a secret muslim connected to Al Queda.
Is your dad a moderate or an undecided? I'd be willing to bet that he had already decided he wasn't going to vote for Obama before he learned the truth about Obama being a muslim terorist.

Mud energizes the base and motivates them to get out to the polls.
No, but he was a moderate repub before 9/11. Thing is, he REALLY believes it! The flag lapel is the proof!

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