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Re: 2016 Election Thread (My God Kill Me Now)
Posted: January 27 16, 4:12 pm
by Schlich
I'll put together a good post full of links to all the hubbub later today.
Re: 2016 Election Thread (My God Kill Me Now)
Posted: January 27 16, 4:19 pm
by Arthur Dent
Schlich wrote:What frustrates me most about "Hillary is a realist/Bernie is an idealist" line of thinking is that it completely dismisses Bernie's career. He hasn't been twiddling his thumbs and shouting platitudes for 30 years. He has gotten a lot done. He knows how the game works. Hillary has more foreign policy experience. That's it. And it hasn't looked good on her.
The more interesting argument in this genre, to me, is the one about whether the Sanders campaign is willing to develop serious proposals or whether they will try and brush the real difficulties of going to something like single payer under the rug. Dismissing campaigning on Medicare for all as mere symbolism is, I think, having a awfully narrow view of what politics is about. The proposal is aspirational, and campaigning on it is part of what is needed to make such aspirations real even if the 2017 Congress won't vote for it. But yes, it is true that the Left does need to be serious about political and technical strategy to achieve its ends. We can't just push the single payer button and pretend no one loses.
Re: 2016 Election Thread (My God Kill Me Now)
Posted: January 27 16, 4:19 pm
by jim
What is a caucus?
Re: 2016 Election Thread (My God Kill Me Now)
Posted: January 27 16, 4:27 pm
by Arthur Dent
Ah, thanks for this link! Almost missed your edit. Seth Ackerman is great.
Re: 2016 Election Thread (My God Kill Me Now)
Posted: January 27 16, 4:28 pm
by Schlich
Arthur Dent wrote:Schlich wrote:What frustrates me most about "Hillary is a realist/Bernie is an idealist" line of thinking is that it completely dismisses Bernie's career. He hasn't been twiddling his thumbs and shouting platitudes for 30 years. He has gotten a lot done. He knows how the game works. Hillary has more foreign policy experience. That's it. And it hasn't looked good on her.
The more interesting argument in this genre, to me, is the one about whether the Sanders campaign is willing to develop serious proposals or whether they will try and brush the real difficulties of going to something like single payer under the rug. Dismissing campaigning on Medicare for all as mere symbolism is, I think, having a awfully narrow view of what politics is about. The proposal is aspirational, and campaigning on it is part of what is needed to make such aspirations real even if the 2017 Congress won't vote for it. But yes, it is true that the Left does need to be serious about political and technical strategy to achieve its ends. We can't just push the single payer button and pretend no one loses.
Yup i agree. The links in my edit a couple pages back ia a good conversation about that. There are a few more i want to post when im able. Vox did a good podcast about it on their In The Weeds show.
Mark me as someone who doesnt think that Sanders needs an airtight proposal during campaigning season for us to be able to start the conversation about getting there. Because it will be so difficult is why we need to start talking about it now, because i dont see universal coverage happening with incremental changes precisely because we pay so much per capita on health care. Systemic problems need systemic solutions.
Edit: glad you caught it
Re: 2016 Election Thread (My God Kill Me Now)
Posted: January 27 16, 4:54 pm
by Joe Shlabotnik
Arthur Dent wrote:Let's just agree that the socialist label is a substantial general election risk but that we don't know how much especially when the alternatives have their own serious baggage.
Edit: And I think detoxifying the word socialist is a worthy and important goal to which the Sanders campaign is contributing greatly.
Anyone else want to discuss the liberal wonks turn against Sanders?
I'd love to see Sanders elected. Really. But it ain't going to happen with the Electoral College. What is Sanders' path to victory in must have states like North Carolina, Indiana, Wisconsin, and Nevada? Notice I'm giving you Florida, Ohio, and Pennsylvania and those aren't really any more winnable IMO.
I've lived through McGovern, Mondale, and Dukakis ass-kickings. And they weren't socialists.
Asking Sanders to win in today's America is a bridge too far.
Re: 2016 Election Thread (My God Kill Me Now)
Posted: January 27 16, 4:56 pm
by Joe Shlabotnik
Jocephus wrote:that article was last updated 9/21/15.
i'm not smart enough to know if time has passed for those numbers to be different. im really not paying attention to these races right now.
Damn it I didn't see that or I wouldn't have posted it. Surprised there isn't recent polling on Sanders' name recognition. I'd really like to see it. Because deep down, I'd like to see him succeed. I just don't see it happening outside of college campuses and the coasts. And that's not enough to carry a general election.
Re: 2016 Election Thread (My God Kill Me Now)
Posted: January 27 16, 4:58 pm
by New Pagodi
Although I think Sanders is right on the healthcare issue, I think it was a huge tactical blunder to emphasize it. It's a losing issue for Democrats. Look at this quote from a voter in the recent election in Kentucky:
NPR wrote:My religious beliefs outweigh whether or not I have insurance
He should have kept the focus on electoral reform and reining-in the investment class. Those are issues where the public - on both sides of the political spectrum - agree with him.
Re: 2016 Election Thread (My God Kill Me Now)
Posted: January 27 16, 5:06 pm
by Vidor
Arthur Dent wrote:Michael wrote:Arthur Dent wrote:Anyone want to discuss the liberal wonks turn against Sanders?
Are you referring to articles
like this written by Paul Starr?
Yeah, exactly. There have been a bunch of these since approximately the last Democratic primary debate where it became clear Sanders has a real shot at the nomination.
Sanders has no shot at the nomination. Seriously, people. We are starting off with two Whitey McWhiterson states. Once we get to the states with primary voters that actually resemble the Democratic Party, this race will not look like this.
Re: 2016 Election Thread (My God Kill Me Now)
Posted: January 27 16, 5:10 pm
by Michael
New Pagodi wrote:Although I think Sanders is right on the healthcare issue, I think it was a huge tactical blunder to emphasize it. It's a losing issue for Democrats. Look at this quote from a voter in the recent election in Kentucky:
NPR wrote:My religious beliefs outweigh whether or not I have insurance
He should have kept the focus on electoral reform and reining-in the investment class. Those are issues where the public - on both sides of the political spectrum - agree with him.
This is just depressing:
If Bevin does try to reduce Kentucky's Medicaid rolls, he'll get plenty of support from Strong, who said tough love might be good for some people in Jackson County as she was getting a haircut around the corner from the public library where Justice was signing up people for health insurance.
Strong, and her hair stylist, Stephanie Wilson, both voted for Bevin because they believe too many people in Jackson County rely on the government.
"They want everything they can get for free," Strong said.
"They think somebody owes it to them — just because," chimed in Wilson. "Nobody owes you anything. You earn what you get."
With a nursing background, Strong said she plans on finding a new job soon so that she can leave Medicaid. Both women are optimistic Bevin, a former businessman, will improve the economy in their corner of the state — which has yet to catch a break.