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I only saw a few snippets of the O'Reilly/Trump conversation. Sounded like he was begging Trump to reconsider.

Michael wrote:

Arthur Dent wrote: Look, I realize the challengers for Sanders in the general election, though you might want consider whether it's a fight worth having. And when the alternative is something like Ted Cruz, I don't know that anyone can say with confidence who would have the upper hand.

What fight are we exactly having? Not even Democrats are getting behind Bernie on this one. I think single payer is the future and I'm glad Sanders is having the conversation, but it's poison in the general election.


Sanders might beat Trump or Cruz, but I think Hilary has a better chance. Republicans do to which is why they're running ads to support Sanders. Not to mention a Sanders nomination will open the door to 3rd party candidates like Bloomberg, which will help bolster Republican chances.

Vidor wrote:I've expressed my fair share of Bernie skepticism but characterizing single-payer as a tax increase is misleading at best. Taxes would go up, yes. But health insurance premiums would go away, forever. Just imagine that "total benefits" breakdown that one might get from one's employer. Imagine if that chunk of the pie that went to your health insurance went into your pocket instead.

Making a nuanced argument like this from a self described socialist to the general electorate is a really bad idea. And this is for something that basically has no chance in the near future.

The amount of money my company pays for health coverage is huge. The chances of me seeing a dime of that money added to my salary if Universal Health care is some day passed are about as good as the chance of me sleeping with Kate Beckinsale. Corporations will say thank you Universal Health Care - we just increased our profits.
That being said, I would be all for Universal Health care, with my big family, I am sure I would see a savings. But to think a big corporation is going to turn around and give the money they saved on my health care coverage to me is naive at best.

I don't care for Cruz's politics, but I can't help but like some of his humor.

Michael wrote:What fight are we exactly having? Not even Democrats are getting behind Bernie on this one. I think single payer is the future and I'm glad Sanders is having the conversation, but it's poison in the general election.

And by Democrats, you mean Nancy Pelosi?

Yes, there has long been substantial disconnect between Democratic Party leaders like Pelosi and the Party base. Sanders' run challenges that grip, which is a fight worth having.

Michael wrote:Sanders might beat Trump or Cruz, but I think Hilary has a better chance.

I agree with this, and I'd add that risks are asymmetric. Sanders would face scorched Earth opposition, while Cruz/Trump would have a much freer hand. Since my vote may actually count this year, I remain undecided for this reason. On the other hand no risk, no reward. Hope or fear?

Arthur Dent wrote:

Michael wrote:What fight are we exactly having? Not even Democrats are getting behind Bernie on this one. I think single payer is the future and I'm glad Sanders is having the conversation, but it's poison in the general election.

And by Democrats, you mean Nancy Pelosi?

Yes, I mean the Democratic establishment. They know it's a losing issue.

Arthur Dent wrote:On the other hand no risk, no reward. Hope or fear?

Honest question: What major policy achievement(s) do you think Sander's will achieve in office that Hillary will not? Given the makeup of the house and senate I don't think there's much of a difference.

I still feel like I am living in Bizzaro world when Donald Trump is leading the poles for the Republican nomination.

Playing devil's advocate to some extent here....

Republicans are going to call whoever the candidate is a radical, left wing liberal socialist who hates America. It's what they do. It doesn't matter if the candidate is actually a moderate centrist. Reality means nothing. So, if they are going to brand the candidate as a radical socialist regardless.....why not send the candidate up who may actually be as far to the left as they portray? Why let fear of what Republicans might do dictate the candidate on the Democratic side? We already know what Republicans will do. They will shamelessly slime whoever the candidate is. It doesn't matter.

Actually Trump has proven that their attacks mean nothing, anyway. They have slimed people so thoroughly and frequently that it is now meaningless. If there is nothing they can do or say to reign in Trump, why would their tactics work on Bernie?

I don't know if we can keep sending up centrist candidates and ever expect to get anywhere. All Republicans do is keep sending up candidates who are further and further to the right. And it's working. How are we ever going to counteract Republicans pulling politics further and further right if Democrats keep sending moderate centrists to try to negotiate with them? At what point do Democrats decide to try to pull politics to the left? I'm seriously asking. The answer is always at some future time when demographics are more favorable or whatever. We may be waiting for a time that never comes.

The argument for Hillary is basically "let's keep the meager progress we've made and not risk losing it". The case for Bernie is higher risk, higher reward.

pioneer98 wrote:Playing devil's advocate to some extent here....

Republicans are going to call whoever the candidate is a radical, left wing liberal socialist who hates America. It's what they do. It doesn't matter if the candidate is actually a moderate centrist. Reality means nothing. So, if they are going to brand the candidate as a radical socialist regardless.....why not send the candidate up who may actually be as far to the left as they portray? Why let fear of what Republicans might do dictate the candidate on the Democratic side? We already know what Republicans will do. They will shamelessly slime whoever the candidate is. It doesn't matter.

Actually Trump has proven that their attacks mean nothing, anyway. They have slimed people so thoroughly and frequently that it is now meaningless. If there is nothing they can do or say to reign in Trump, why would their tactics work on Bernie?

I don't know if we can keep sending up centrist candidates and ever expect to get anywhere. All Republicans do is keep sending up candidates who are further and further to the right. And it's working. How are we ever going to counteract Republicans pulling politics further and further right if Democrats keep sending moderate centrists to try to negotiate with them? At what point do Democrats decide to try to pull politics to the left? I'm seriously asking. The answer is always at some future time when demographics are more favorable or whatever. We may be waiting for a time that never comes.

I have to disagree with this. Politics and the country are moving to the left and the republicans are the party in crisis. Maybe in 8 years the country will be ready for Sanders type of candidate and a single payer system, but that time isn't now. I know it's not a sexy argument, but democrats should stay the course. What they're doing is working.

pioneer98 wrote:The argument for Hillary is basically "let's keep the meager progress we've made and not risk losing it". The case for Bernie is higher risk, higher reward.

What's the high reward? He still has to work with congress.

"Staying the course" means more embarrassing midterm defeats. No thanks.

Another way of saying what I'm saying above is: Republicans don't ever have an internal debate about "Oh, is Ted Cruz too far to the right to get elected?" No. Their concerns are more like: "Is Trump too far to the left to get elected?" No one on that side ever worries that their guy will go too far and get stonewalled by Congress like we do on the left.

Part of that is because Republicans control Congress right now....but look back to When Democrats controlled everything after 2008. Was the Republicans' reaction to say "Gee, we got whipped so we better move to the center." Of course not!!! Instead they doubled down on moving further right and the Tea Party was born, and they took back Congress and the Senate. Democrats should really try this sometime.