Edmonds heading to San Diego

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GatewaySnayke
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Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

Post by GatewaySnayke »

ghostrunner wrote:To sign free agents, the trend is to guarantee a number of years. What was the general sentiment regarding Burnett a few years ago? Too much money, not good enough, wants too many years. Now it looks like a good deal. The sticking point wasn't money though, it was time. We also did open up the wallet, only in bad ways - extending Mulder, Carpenter and Edmonds.
Agreed, which means there's something to it when Steve harps on the Cardinals for mis-judging the market. At some point, a person in charge had to think "if the revenues continue to expand like Barry's head, that means salaries will too."
We just picked up an $8 million option on Isringhausen. That would be an exciting acquisition for most teams. I don't happen to think it was a good idea, FWIW.
I don't either.

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EastonBlues22
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Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

Post by EastonBlues22 »

GatewaySnayke wrote:
ghostrunner wrote: Even if they don't use it, the option is there.
The option has been there since the summer of 2005:

Number of big bats/impact pitchers traded for in the past 2.5 seasons: 0
Number of big bats/impact pitchers signed in the past 2 offseasons: 0

Looks to me like it's more of "Option D" behind extending their own players for too much money, signing fringe players and trading for crappy starters-turned-relievers-turned starters.
I agree that the organization has set some uninspiring precedents in the recent past, and made a rather confusing series of moves thus far this offseason, but we should probably wait until the end of this offseason before we lump Moz's first body of work in as a continuation of Walt's last few.

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EastonBlues22
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Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

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GatewaySnayke wrote:
ghostrunner wrote:We just picked up an $8 million option on Isringhausen. That would be an exciting acquisition for most teams. I don't happen to think it was a good idea, FWIW.
I don't either.
I like it...it gave us a lot of flexibility and kept a real asset under our control.

If Cordero can command $12 million, you can bet there's a market for Izzy at $8 million...and there will be all the way through the trading deadline. If we happen to back into competing and want to keep him, fine. If we fall out of contention (or are offered a deal too good to pass up), we could very easily move him (either singly, or in a package) to acquire some youth with potential.

There wasn't much to spend money on in FA...Izzy's option was a nice use of financial resources that could easily be translated into resources of another type.

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Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

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ghostrunner wrote:Nobody thought to draft Pujols until the 13th round.
This is false actually. Tampa Bay's story is the most notorious -- they had a scout quit in part because they wouldn't draft Pujols -- but the Red Sox passed on Pujols earlier in the draft because he wouldn't agree to their bonus demands. More to the meat of your point, it says something to me that nobody threw a 13th round or 62nd round pick at Freese. Not at HS, not when he was a JuCo, not after his fourth year. That's an untold story I find hard to ignore.
I take your point about overrating prospects, but the stated goal of the franchise at this point is to improve the farm system and try to build from within. I don't understand the confusion about direction people are expressing. We're not going to draft our way to contention in the next couple of years, so some trades like this would be needed to add heft to the minor leagues.
Adding an empty name to a list isn't progress. As Leroy implied, you're not improving the Cardinals by trading Pujols for a AA guy. We can try to draw a line between where a transaction helps or hurts your talent overall, and at the very least I don't see how this trade is much above that line. Decent prospects have a high enough failure rate as it is. I can't see how somebody out on the fringe like this helps. It's pretty pointless talent-wise, but money-wise is another matter. I agree that they're following the farm philosophy, which unfortunately means they're not spending extra money for pitching this year. History suggests their philosophy excludes spending extra money on above-slot draft picks too.

Mozeliak has described himself as a finance guy, and this looks like a financial transaction to me, and, man, that sucks.
Last edited by greenback44 on December 16 07, 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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GatewaySnayke
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Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

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EastonBlues22 wrote:
GatewaySnayke wrote:
ghostrunner wrote:We just picked up an $8 million option on Isringhausen. That would be an exciting acquisition for most teams. I don't happen to think it was a good idea, FWIW.
I don't either.
I like it...it gave us a lot of flexibility and kept a real asset under our control.

If Cordero can command $12 million, you can bet there's a market for Izzy at $8 million...and there will be all the way through the trading deadline. If we happen to back into competing and want to keep him, fine. If we fall out of contention (or are offered a deal too good to pass up), we could very easily move him (either singly, or in a package) to acquire some youth with potential.

There wasn't much to spend money on in FA...Izzy's option was a nice use of financial resources that could easily be translated into resources of another type.
I'm just not that excited about the prospects of a guy pitching on borrowed time.

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Richie Allen
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Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

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I think when you lock up four superstar players to long-term contracts in a matter of a couple years (in an organization with a budget like St. Louis), probably the majority of the moves you'll see in the coming years would be of the "financial" variety.

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Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

Post by EastonBlues22 »

GatewaySnayke wrote:
EastonBlues22 wrote:
GatewaySnayke wrote:
ghostrunner wrote:We just picked up an $8 million option on Isringhausen. That would be an exciting acquisition for most teams. I don't happen to think it was a good idea, FWIW.
I don't either.
I like it...it gave us a lot of flexibility and kept a real asset under our control.

If Cordero can command $12 million, you can bet there's a market for Izzy at $8 million...and there will be all the way through the trading deadline. If we happen to back into competing and want to keep him, fine. If we fall out of contention (or are offered a deal too good to pass up), we could very easily move him (either singly, or in a package) to acquire some youth with potential.

There wasn't much to spend money on in FA...Izzy's option was a nice use of financial resources that could easily be translated into resources of another type.
I'm just not that excited about the prospects of a guy pitching on borrowed time.
And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that...if rational people couldn't hold differing opinions, these threads would all be a whole lot shorter.

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GatewaySnayke
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Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

Post by GatewaySnayke »

That's true. I guess it's why Yadier Molina threads...

Nevermind.

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Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

Post by GatewaySnayke »

One more thing about what the trade could mean long term:

The Cardinals better hope and pray that this is a loyal, dedicated fanbase that does not get finnicky during a dormant few years. Trading one of the biggest fan favorites can be necessary, but the Cardinals are getting on a slippery slope. I've seen it happen to the Rams. Things can be great and all will seem right with the world until ownership starts getting too hands-on and creates PR nightmares. All things are cyclical and it will be hard for the Cardinals fanbase to become as lethargic and uninterested as the Rams fan base, considering the 100 years difference, but the kind of stuff that has been transpiring also creates a new kind of culture. I really, really hope that the team has a plan and that plan results in another Cardinals boom. But if it's a bad plan, I'd guess we're looking at becoming the Pirates.

So by the P-D calling the Edmonds trade a new era and stuff, they're right. It's either going to be the first of many steps toward making the Cardinals contenders again or it's going turn the franchise into a third-rate Moneyball team being run by monkeys.

MrSaigon

Re: Edmonds heading to San Diego

Post by MrSaigon »

greenback44 wrote:
As for optimism, this gets to that awful Miklasz discussion of Garcia. I've learned if you blindly take the "under" with prospects on Internet message boards, you'll probably be on the right side. Not that I'm recommending taking a blind position and recognizing that this can be an annoying side to hear, it's pretty much a fact of life that many fans will overrate prospects, and I have to say that hearing about the greatness of Luna and Evans was pretty darn annoying in its own right.
It's true. In Cardinals circles our prospects get way more cred than they should, and more than (an endless list of) history would suggest is practical.

Use the Yankees as an example. Their circle is enormous, so everyone overvalues their prospects (and I'm talking about Shane Spencer and quite possibly Melky, not Hughes).

It's good for the Yankees. It doesn't do much for us.

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