GatewayRedbirds.com

AWvsCBsteeeerike3 wrote:This was a dumb [expletive] trade. I mean, what the [expletive]? Ludwick's 2.6 WAR this year while Westbrook is 1.0 WAR. Further, Ludwick was under contract next year. further, he's no Pujols, but he's a key part of the offense. Further, WTF. how the [expletive] does Joe Saunders plus a bunch of [expletive] bring in Dan Haren and the Cardinals deal Ludwick for Westbrook straight up. Ludwick is better than the entire slew of [expletive] the Angels gave for Haren. [expletive]! I can't remember the last time I was this pissed at the Cardinals.

If it makes you feel any better Stavinoha got called up!

InvincibleCakeEater wrote:

AWvsCBsteeeerike3 wrote:This was a dumb [expletive] trade. I mean, what the [expletive]? Ludwick's 2.6 WAR this year while Westbrook is 1.0 WAR. Further, Ludwick was under contract next year. further, he's no Pujols, but he's a key part of the offense. Further, WTF. how the [expletive] does Joe Saunders plus a bunch of [expletive] bring in Dan Haren and the Cardinals deal Ludwick for Westbrook straight up. Ludwick is better than the entire slew of [expletive] the Angels gave for Haren. [expletive]! I can't remember the last time I was this pissed at the Cardinals.

If it makes you feel any better Stavinoha got called up!

No. It makkes me even more upset. [expletive]

Gordo weighs in (sorry if it's already been posted but I missed a few pages while mowing the lawn.

Gordon: Cards pay big price to stay in arms race

This was a stiff price to pay for a No. 4 starter. Even with the surgically repaired Kyle Lohse on the cusp of returning, the Cardinals did not have enough starting pitching to win the National League Central.

Now they do.

Westbrook (6-7, 4.65 ERA in Cleveland this season) fits the Cardinal mode. He is a ground-ball pitcher who will benefit from switching from a bad American League team to a contending National League squad.

From 2004-06, Westbrook won 44 games for the Indians. He appears to be healthy this summer and his previous outing was strong – eight innings against the Yankees with just three runs allowed.

With Westbrook and Lohse fitting in behind Adam Wainwright, Chris Carpenter and Jaime Garcia, the Cards have regained the starting pitching depth that served them so well earlier this season.

Sacrificing Ludwick was painful, but he didn’t seem to fit the team puzzle for 2011 and beyond. So Mozeliak opted to play that chip now rather than wait for the off-season.

Hopefully Ludwick slept with larussa's daughter or something so this trade actually makes sense.

Remember when there was an offer of Kelly Johnson or Yunel Escobar straight up for Ludwick on the table last year? [expletive]. Why do that when you can get 3 months of Jake the mother [expletive] man Westrbook.

There are always going to be lopsided looking trades where one team appears to give up nothing in exchange for decent talent. Fact is, it isn't always going to be us on the side that appears to benefit. Cleveland may have insisted on a particular player to make this move. I'm sure they didn't simply say give us any marginal, class A prospect.

And while it's great for debate, I think it's crazy to examine each individual move a team makes and call it a win or lose, without at least a little consideration for all of the other potential moves that may be made. No, it's not good to "lose" trades but I think I'd hold off judging the front office as a success or failure based on a single move or two.

Kyle wrote:So all we need now is a Greene demotion and I'll be correct. La Russa can be predictably nauseating sometimes.

I won't argue with you there.

Richie Allen wrote:There are always going to be lopsided looking trades where one team appears to give up nothing in exchange for decent talent. Fact is, it isn't always going to be us on the side that appears to benefit. Cleveland may have insisted on a particular player to make this move. I'm sure they didn't simply say give us any marginal, class A prospect.

And while it's great for debate, I think it's crazy to examine each individual move a team makes and call it a win or lose, without at least a little consideration for all of the other potential moves that may be made. No, it's not good to "lose" trades but I think I'd hold off judging the front office as a success or failure based on a single move or two.

You and your calm, rational logic can get the hell out of here

So, instead of the Craig/Jay platoon that I was hoping for, we're getting a roster full of players who can't be sent down. Stavy's back up and w/o options he's stuck on the roster. That means we're living and dying with Jay... and that's not good at all. I like Jay, but he needs to be coupled with a player with power, preferably a right handed one to platoon against LHP'ers. We have one of those... Craig.

In Jay's MiLB career, he's been awful against LHP'ers... 0.259 0.336 0.349 0.685. Now he's effectively in a platoon with Stavinoha (career 581 OPS) OR he's playing everyday and sucking against lefties.

Criag, longterm, IS Ludwick's longterm replacement. Jay, longterm, is a great play-me-anywhere OF'er. I understand that we can't bring Craig back up for a few more days, but we now have Winn, MacDougal, Stavy, Supp, Hawk, and Miles on the roster and none of them can be sent down.

The only player on our roster right now who has options and could be sent down is Greene.

We've just created a big old mess for ourselves that can only be solved with some DFA's. Man up, MO and DFA Stavy when Craig is eligible.

If things progress as they've gone already, we can't win this trade. Ludwick is better than Westbrook so we're already losing.

The prospect is inconsequential.

Losing Ludwick will cost a win or two.
Gaining Westbrook will probably net a win.

Let's say it's a wash from a production view.

Westbrook can and will walk, Ludwick is team controlled.

We lose.

Fat Strat wrote:So, instead of the Craig/Jay platoon that I was hoping for, we're getting a roster full of players who can't be sent down. Stavy's back up and w/o options he's stuck on the roster. That means we're living and dying with Jay... and that's not good at all. I like Jay, but he needs to be coupled with a player with power, preferably a right handed one to platoon against LHP'ers. We have one of those... Craig.

In Jay's MiLB career, he's been awful against LHP'ers... 0.259 0.336 0.349 0.685. Now he's effectively in a platoon with Stavinoha (career 581 OPS) OR he's playing everyday and sucking against lefties.

Criag, longterm, IS Ludwick's longterm replacement. Jay, longterm, is a great play-me-anywhere OF'er. I understand that we can't bring Craig back up for a few more days, but we now have Winn, MacDougal, Stavy, Supp, Hawk, and Miles on the roster and none of them can be sent down.

The only player on our roster right now who has options and could be sent down is Greene.

We've just created a big old mess for ourselves that can only be solved with some DFA's. Man up, MO and DFA Stavy when Craig is eligible.

Why does Stavinoha not have options? It's not a certain number of options, in my understanding, but a certain number of seasons in which he can be optioned at least once.