GatewayRedbirds.com

LeBron couldn't do it alone, sure. It's doubtful Cleveland could have gotten the help he needed. Trying to build the 1980 USSR Hockey Team was a swing too far in the other direction especially for a guy, as I said, wearing a Jordan jersey over his CHOSEN 1 tattoo.

Socnorb11 wrote:Again, just because Lebron is the best player on the team, that doesn't make it "his" team. See my Tulowitzki/Molina example.

I would agree with your Tulo example WRT baseball, but I don't think baseball and basketball are comparable in that regard. It's much harder to assert yourself into that role in baseball with so many players on the field and relatively few times where each player is in the spotlight. Basketball you know who everyone is at all times. Maybe all 12 hardcore Heat fans still see it as Wade's team out of nostalgia, but there's no reason for anyone else to see it that way.

cardsfansince82 wrote:

Socnorb11 wrote:Again, just because Lebron is the best player on the team, that doesn't make it "his" team. See my Tulowitzki/Molina example.

I would agree with your Tulo example WRT baseball, but I don't think baseball and basketball are comparable in that regard.

They aren't at all. Being the best player on the team is way more valuable in correlation to wins in basketball.

I'm with 82 on this one. LeBron allowed Wade to be the alpha or leader or whatever that first year. He deferred, and that was probably the right thing to do. They weren't going to win unless it became LeBron's team, though.

trill wrote:

cardsfansince82 wrote:

Socnorb11 wrote:Again, just because Lebron is the best player on the team, that doesn't make it "his" team. See my Tulowitzki/Molina example.

I would agree with your Tulo example WRT baseball, but I don't think baseball and basketball are comparable in that regard.

They aren't at all. Being the best player on the team is way more valuable in correlation to wins in basketball.

No argument there.

I've forgotten what the relevance of this conversation is, at this point.

To clear one thing up here, I hope Lebron opts out and signs with the Bulls.

cardsfansince82 wrote:

Felix The Cat wrote:

cardsfansince82 wrote:The team he went to wasn't any better than the Spurs, Lakers, Celtics, Thunder already were, and that's who he had to beat to get a ring. Any team he joined (Bulls, Heat, whoever) was going to be on that level because he's that damn good. The last team to win an NBA title without 3 all star caliber players is probably the 98 Bulls, so only sixteen years ago. Everyone is telling him he's a piece of [expletive] until he wins a ring. What was he supposed to do? Stay in Cleveland and never win a ring and then have the same people call him overrated?

Um...what? I've heard quite a few discussions about NBA championship teams with minimal star players and that's the first time I've ever heard any of MJ's Bulls teams mentioned in that light.

Jordan and Pippen were studs. You could maybe argue that Kukoc or Rodman qualify but those guys were just role players by that point. But if you insist, that means you have to go back even farther to find a team without three main guys.

Kukoc/Rodman are debatable. Even if I concede that they were more role player quality than all star quality in 1998 by setting a higher bar to be an all star caliber player, the 2004 Pistons and 2011 Mavericks exist.

I think you might be focusing too much on my use of all star caliber. I'm not saying they were all all stars that specific year or even necessarily all stars at any point. I'm saying these are players who are much better than just average role players. Guys that can get 20 points, or ten boards or ten assists with some regularity. Guys that have more than one elite skill. When you are on a good team with a bunch of other good players, your per game averages aren't always going to be that impressive. If they were on lesser teams, these guys would shine.

The 2011 Mavs had HOFer and top 5 PF of all time Dirk in his prime. HOFer and top 5 PG of all time Jason Kidd still top 10 in the entire league in assists and steals. Criminally underrated possible HOFer Shawn Marion doing Shawn Marion things on both ends. Perennial defensive POY candidate Tyson Chandler averaging a double-double and wreaking havoc in the paint. Perennial sixth man of the year candidate Jason Terry averaging 15 a game off the bench. Plus Caron Butler in his prime and some other guys. That team was loaded.

The 2004 Pistons are probably the closest to not meeting the criteria, but they had a lot of guys whose numbers were held back by the talent and team concept around them. They still had DPOY Ben Wallace at his apex averaging a double-double, Rip Hamilton and Chauncey Billups both averaging 17-5-4, and Tayshaun Prince and Sheed both averaging double figures. That was another great team.

Rodman probably disqualifies the Bulls, although by that point his only value was rebounding and he was such a liability in other areas that I'm not sure.

Again, I'm not even sure what the relevance is of how good each supporting cast was. What Lebron did is pretty much unprecedented. Jordan, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Wade, Dirk ................ none of those guys pursued championships by trying to build an all-star team. Those team,s certainly added some key pieces around their superstar, but never conspired to get all of the best free agents onto one team. I don't necessarily BLAME Lebron for leaving............ it just would have been way way cooler if the Cavs could have brought in the pieces to bring a championship to Cleveland. I doubt if I would have admired Lebron as a player any less, had he stayed in Cleveland and never won a championship. I guess winning is fun though, so good for him.

Shaq is the closest thing to Lebron that I can think of (with regard to a superstar changing teams). I never really felt that the teams that Shaq joined were "Shaq's teams", though............. and he never made a party out of leaving an old team and joining a new one.

hah, c'mon soc, don't be so coy about "i guess winning is fun". you know it is, you are a cardinals and broncos fan.

and while jordan, magic, dunc, et al didn't publicly conspire to get a team together, you don't think those guys had/have an ear with the GM/coach, etc on what is the best path for them/the team? kobe wants to be involved with who the next coach is. don't you think peyton has a very clear dialogue with elway on what he thinks is best for him (peyton) as well as the team (what kind of player peyton works well with/skill set, etc).

obviously you dont have to "like-like" LBJ nor would i try to change your mind but i think you are exaggerating a bit here in regards to what he did and what others have (or haven't) done