The almighty save!

jim · Post by **jim** » April 26 07, 1:32 pm

Jmodene wrote:Considering Izzy only threw six pitches

That's not my issue. It's the warming up, sitting down, re-warming up, and then coming in that is my issue. And it may not make a difference today, or tomorrow, or next week. But he's 34 with a long medical history, I'm just saying rather than let the save rule dictate what you do with him to use some common sense.

Jmodene · Post by **Jmodene** » April 26 07, 1:55 pm

Indeed. OTOH, the second warm-up isn't nearly as injurious as the first; and it could be argued that if you're gonna get a guy up, you may as well use him - especially since Flores *did* allow the baserunner.

Hungary Jack · Post by **Hungary Jack** » April 26 07, 2:18 pm

jim wrote:
Jmodene wrote:Considering Izzy only threw six pitches
That's not my issue. It's the warming up, sitting down, re-warming up, and then coming in that is my issue. And it may not make a difference today, or tomorrow, or next week. But he's 34 with a long medical history, I'm just saying rather than let the save rule dictate what you do with him to use some common sense.

Jim, do you really think TLR's actions are dictated by the "save rule"? Love him or hate him, TLR cares only about winning, not a player's stats.

jim · Post by **jim** » April 26 07, 2:21 pm

Hungary Jack wrote:
jim wrote:
Jmodene wrote:Considering Izzy only threw six pitches
That's not my issue. It's the warming up, sitting down, re-warming up, and then coming in that is my issue. And it may not make a difference today, or tomorrow, or next week. But he's 34 with a long medical history, I'm just saying rather than let the save rule dictate what you do with him to use some common sense.
Jim, do you really think TLR's actions are dictated by the "save rule"? Love him or hate him, TLR cares only about winning, not a player's stats.

Either directly or indirectly I do. I'm not sure he's padding stats, although he is one to show loyalty to players have shown it to him, and it wouldn't be out of the question with him to put a player like Izzy in a situation to rack up as many saves as possible. He may feel that a save situation always calls for your bullpen ace, therefore it's strategic.

Popeye_Card · Post by **Popeye_Card** » April 26 07, 2:55 pm

jim wrote:
Hungary Jack wrote:
jim wrote:
Jmodene wrote:Considering Izzy only threw six pitches
That's not my issue. It's the warming up, sitting down, re-warming up, and then coming in that is my issue. And it may not make a difference today, or tomorrow, or next week. But he's 34 with a long medical history, I'm just saying rather than let the save rule dictate what you do with him to use some common sense.
Jim, do you really think TLR's actions are dictated by the "save rule"? Love him or hate him, TLR cares only about winning, not a player's stats.
Either directly or indirectly I do. I'm not sure he's padding stats, although he is one to show loyalty to players have shown it to him, and it wouldn't be out of the question with him to put a player like Izzy in a situation to rack up as many saves as possible. He may feel that a save situation always calls for your bullpen ace, therefore it's strategic.

I would say that a 2 run lead that may lead to only the second home victory of the season is pretty important to protect. So you send out your best reliever. Clearly, that is Izzy this year, IMO.

--P--

GatewaySnayke · Post by **GatewaySnayke** » April 26 07, 2:57 pm

Maybe they want Izzy to pad his stats so they can trade him?

I'm awfully sadistic lately.

jim · Post by **jim** » April 26 07, 3:12 pm

Popeye_Card wrote:
jim wrote:
Hungary Jack wrote:
jim wrote:
Jmodene wrote:Considering Izzy only threw six pitches
That's not my issue. It's the warming up, sitting down, re-warming up, and then coming in that is my issue. And it may not make a difference today, or tomorrow, or next week. But he's 34 with a long medical history, I'm just saying rather than let the save rule dictate what you do with him to use some common sense.
Jim, do you really think TLR's actions are dictated by the "save rule"? Love him or hate him, TLR cares only about winning, not a player's stats.
Either directly or indirectly I do. I'm not sure he's padding stats, although he is one to show loyalty to players have shown it to him, and it wouldn't be out of the question with him to put a player like Izzy in a situation to rack up as many saves as possible. He may feel that a save situation always calls for your bullpen ace, therefore it's strategic.
I would say that a 2 run lead that may lead to only the second home victory of the season is pretty important to protect. So you send out your best reliever. Clearly, that is Izzy this year, IMO.

--P--

I feel like I'm going in circles here.

You make the decision to warm him up in the bottom of the 8th. Why not just go with plan A, even though it's not a save situation? That's the issue - either bring him in right away with a 4 run lead, or let the lefty get the two guys to start the inning and bring him in then.

Yeah, I agree a 2 run lead should be protected. I'm just saying for his long term benefit, even though it's not a save situation, you've warmed him up so bring him in. Don't sit him down and then bring him up again.

Richie Allen · Post by **Richie Allen** » April 26 07, 3:13 pm

Hungary Jack wrote:
jim wrote:
Jmodene wrote:Considering Izzy only threw six pitches
That's not my issue. It's the warming up, sitting down, re-warming up, and then coming in that is my issue. And it may not make a difference today, or tomorrow, or next week. But he's 34 with a long medical history, I'm just saying rather than let the save rule dictate what you do with him to use some common sense.
Jim, do you really think TLR's actions are dictated by the "save rule"?

Surprisingly, it seems to me that most managers are. And, predictably, they take heat if they don't follow the save rule and it subsequently backfires.

I hate the save stat, although it doesn't approach my hatred of blowing a game that we lead in the ninth.

Arthur Dent · Post by **Arthur Dent** » April 26 07, 9:38 pm

If the conventional wisdom about closers is wrong, is there an alternate strategy that would be more effective? Does it make sense to carry one relief ace?

Richie Allen · Post by **Richie Allen** » April 26 07, 10:23 pm

Arthur Dent wrote:If the conventional wisdom about closers is wrong, is there an alternate strategy that would be more effective? Does it make sense to carry one relief ace?

The conventional wisdom seems to dictate that a closer has no business pitching in a tie game. Even if it's going to the bottom of the ninth.

The conventional wisdom says that a closer should almost never pitch in the 8th inning.

The conventional wisdom says that a closer should not enter a game unless an official save can be recorded.

The conventional wisdom says that even if a non-closer breezes through the 8th, he's replaced by the closer at the beginning of the 9th.

I am not anti closer. I, unlike many folks, think they are valuable. Especially if you're one of those teams that has trouble putting the opposing team away and are in a lot of close games late. I am anti closers should only pitch in save situations/should almost never pitch in non-save situations.