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that's playing semantics a bit.

Perhaps the better way of putting it is the large volume of discussion right now feels to me like it breeds a negative environment at a time when the team is rebuilding and folks are bound to feel down as it is. There's nothing wrong with questioning moves and trying to understand what the team is doing.

that's playing semantics a bit.

Not entirely.

The position that "people are being negative" when they are expressing dissenting opinions supported by arguable but legitimate facts, is making the argument about me and my attitude (not to overly personalize this -- it applies to whoever we're talking about), rather than about my (the collective "my") analysis of the team and whether that position holds water.

as I've said multiple times, there's nothing wrong with expressing those opinions.

it's the expression of those opinions in every other thread that makes things seem negative.

it breeds a negative environment

Depends on what a negative environment is. I have not seen a lot of people "attacking the poster instead of the position" (at least until the negativity card came out, which is less about positions than about posters), I have not seen a lot of rants, I have not seen a lot of complaining except where supported by some cogent reason or argument. Discussing Cardinal baseball that is not going particularly well is not necessarily creating a neative environment unless the goal is to feel good about everything the team is doing, warranted or not.

clevername wrote:as I've said multiple times, there's nothing wrong with expressing those opinions.

it's the expression of those opinions in every other thread that makes things seem negative.

What else is there to discuss?

Would this be a bad time to start a thread about the state in which Walt left this team?

My guess as to why there's so much "negativity" filling up is because there are a lot of inconsistencies popping up in the Master Plan and each move becomes more puzzling than the next.

Remember, at the beginning of the off-season, it was made clear that the Cardinals would be "competitive" while striving towards a viable farm system. I guess I find it hard to believe that it's competitive to trade a guy who could very well bounce back (as discussed at length already) just to get rid of his salary. I also find it hard to believe that there's not a single team out there that is not interested in Chris Duncan or Rick Ankiel and would offer up a pitcher better than Joel Pineiro.

The problem arises when the optimistic, who at this point are pinning their hopes that good things are going to happen around the corner, are arguing with those that are (supposedly) relying on "facts" and objective reasoning.
No, it's not typical that a 25 year old class A third baseman will ever fill Scott Rolen's shoes adequately. But I don't think those of us that are trying to stay open-minded are under the impression that the future of the St. Louis Cardinal hinges on the pending success of David Freese. Or that the signing of Cesar Izturis is going to set this franchise back any.
But we don't have the "I'm simply interpreting the facts" card to play and I think it's frustrating when you're discussing such unknown commodities with folks that are arguing that they are in possession of all of the facts.
I suppose I try to stay open minded, partially because of the number of times I've been completely wrong about these types of things in the past.

skmsw wrote:Discussing Cardinal baseball that is not going particularly well is not necessarily creating a neative environment unless the goal is to feel good about everything the team is doing, warranted or not.

I think this point, which you pass off nonchalantly, is part of the issue some of us have.
"Not going particularly well"
I don't think everyone necessarily feels that way. But you continually frame it as though it's a fact.

I'm curious, what course would you have suggested for this team?

Richie Allen wrote:I don't think everyone necessarily feels that way. But you continually frame it as though it's a fact.

Tell me what the starting lineup and rotation is and I'll tell you if things are indeed going well.