cards as sellers in july?

[BW23]

If the Cards were to sell, I'd want the team to get much younger. But I still wouldn't consider any minor leaguer to be untouchable. Granted, Miguel Cabrera likely wouldn't be available, but you can't say that Garcia is untouchable if Florida was to be interested. That's my point.

Yes, the Barton's and Crisp's and Haren's of the world would look better being in Cardinal red to some (not me, at least with those first two), but the fact that those trades are considered bad by some (I'd still do the Crisp trade) doesn't mean that minor leaguers/young ML players with high value should never be dealt. It's just that the Mulder trade was a dumb trade to begin with.

I'd trade Rolen in a second for the right package of players. I'm sure if the Cards are out of it, Izzy will be dealt. The problem is that guys like Eck or Wells or Reyes won't bring anything of return worth anything at all unless there's a significant improvement. And even with Reyes, if he does magically post a 3.75 ERA from now until the deadline, I don't see his value being that high at all.

That ship has passed.

Everyone not named Carpenter or Pujols should be shopped.

[Dillagii]

No prospect is a sure thing. Look at Josh Hamilton or Rick Ankiel.

Or Daric Barton.

Wow. That's not good. I wonder this has anything to do with the injury he had last year.

I like his walk rate though, even though his BB:K is 10:15.

[Hungary Jack]

I think an Iron Law of baseball is that prospects are just prospects until they do something at the major league level. They can be a very valuable trade commodity, but trading them away is like borrowing from the future. Eventually the bills come due, because regardless of whether a prospect pans out, you have created a void that has to be filled somehow. This can get expensive if your pool of MLB-ready young players is thin, as ours is right now.

[GatewaySnayke]

I was never high on Daric Barton as was, and knew that if he was with the Cardinals, he would never have a position with the team because he would never have hit for enough power to be a corner player.

But, the guy could make a good backup infielder. One thing is for certain about him -- he can take a walk like nobody's business. Without the benefit of hindsight, I still make that trade every day and twice on Tuesday, because it was worth the gamble at the time.

[Hungary Jack]

No prospect is a sure thing. Look at Josh Hamilton or Rick Ankiel.

Or Daric Barton.

Wow. That's not good. I wonder this has anything to do with the injury he had last year.

I like his walk rate though, even though his BB:K is 10:15.

His rise has slowed considerably, but he's still only 21. At this point, Barton is icing on the cake for the A's, because Haren and Calero have paid big dividends already.

[BW23]

But if you're selling, and you can get something for players other than Izzy, then you're also adding young players.

I was high on Barton, but I was high on his value in a trade. I certainly wasn't against dealing him. But regardless of how he's done or will do, it doesn't mean dealing him for Mulder was right. Heck, trading Haren straight up for Mulder would have been a bad deal, especially in hindsight. Throw in the fact that Barton and Calero were included, it's a very bad deal. Walt compounded it by making it a horrible deal by giving Mulder a stupid 2-year extension.

[greenback44]

But if you're selling, and you can get something for players other than Izzy, then you're also adding young players.

But if all you're getting is the next David Bell, then it's not accomplishing a whole lot.

A Rolen trade would have to be part of a much, much bigger change in the Cardinals strategy. Unless they absolutely fleece somebody, it hurts in 2008 and maybe a few years beyond that. LaRussa's 62 years old, he's not going to want to wait through a major rebuilding plan. He's gone and so then is Duncan. Jocketty's not a development guy really, so he probably goes off into the sunset with them. If you're going to have a major shakeup and build towards 2010 and beyond, then you have to consider offers for Pujols. That may require Whitey Herzog as GM.

[BW23]

You can deal Rolen and contend, at worst, for the NL Central in 2008.

I agree that if you just get the David Bell's of the world back, then it's not worth doing really. But I think it's pretty clear that's now what I'm talking about doing.

[GatewaySnayke]

But if you're selling, and you can get something for players other than Izzy, then you're also adding young players.

I was high on Barton, but I was high on his value in a trade. I certainly wasn't against dealing him. But regardless of how he's done or will do, it doesn't mean dealing him for Mulder was right. Heck, trading Haren straight up for Mulder would have been a bad deal, especially in hindsight. Throw in the fact that Barton and Calero were included, it's a very bad deal. Walt compounded it by making it a horrible deal by giving Mulder a stupid 2-year extension.

I don't see how it wasn't worth a risk.

Either the Cardinals sit back and do nothing, or they go out and make a move that they think will push them over the edge. It's quite clear that Jocketty saw the window closing, and that the Cardinals needed the "ace" pitcher to finally put them over the top. It amazes me that even 2.5 years after this deal has been done that people act like it has shaken the foundation to its core and things have never gone right since.

And I don't even see how giving Mulder a two year deal is a bad one. Jesus, are we paying Mark Mulder's salary? If he doesn't work out, and Mulder's career is finished, how is it going to change anything? Will it keep the Cardinals from having the payroll flexibility to do anything? Thirteen million is a pretty paltry sum over two years, and is hardly going to wreak havoc on the payroll, send Jocketty into panic mode and wracking his brain trying to dump payroll and bail the Cardinals out of the red.

[BW23]

I don't see how it was worth the risk. Many, myself included, felt like Haren could at least come close to doing what Mulder could. Many, myself included again, also felt like Mulder could be hurt. Haren obviously made a lot less. Then you have the other two valuable chips.

And why is that the only player that they could have gotten for Barton and others? And why did it have to happen then? Mulder clearly wasn't the kind of pitcher they publicly said they wanted. What they did was settled satisfying some of the fans.

Paying a guy not to pitch for you (as they're doing this year) isn't good business, IMO. And it's a gamble for next year. They won the series with him in the organization (even if he provided absolutely nothing at all of value). It was the perfect time to walk away and thank him. Let someone else pay for his rehab.

I don't see how you can say that his salary really doesn't matter right now. If he's done, you don't think that money could have been used better? Granted, it's not you and I paying the salary (which is what I think you were implying), but those who go to the park and pay for tickets and concessions are. Are they really getting their money's worth? (I don't go to games, so I'm excluded from that population.)

If you feel differently, that's fine. I've felt like this from day one, and I believe what's happened has only backed up my opinion.