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JackofDiamonds wrote:This is probably the 5th time you've used some variation of "to do his job" in this thread.

I am attempting to describe the situation accurately.

If management has decided that limiting his innings in his first full year as a pro after a major arm surgery is the best way he can do his job in the future, then his job is to stop "playing baseball" when they tell him to.

This is true in the literal sense that if management decides he will stop pitching, then yes, he will stop pitching. It would be completely insane for them to make that decision, but you are correct in saying that it is their call.

Why don't we just have 2 starting pitchers and send those [expletive] out there and throw every other day? It's their job. They can't just go out and play baseball?

And much like the suggestion above that Strasburg should pitch with a torn UCL, this again is an exaggeration. No one is suggesting that Strasburg pitch every other day. The idea is that a team with a chance to win a World Series should actually, you know, try their best to win that World Series; that winning a World Series is important and shutting down your ace starting pitcher when nothing at all is wrong with him is anticompetitive, bad for the team, bad for the fans, and bad for the sport.

I really hope they don't do it, and if they do it, I hope it backfires on them. The Braves are 11-2 in their last 13 games.

I would highly contest the notion that nothing is wrong with him.

I'd imagine a very close look would reveal micro tearing of something in the shoulder, probably the labrum. Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but a little damage caused by the regular wear and tear of a bseball season can be fixed naturally by the body, but to continue pitching on and especially when these little tears occur compounds the problem to the point of requiring (possibly career ending) surgery, no?

Vidor wrote:

JackofDiamonds wrote:

If management has decided that limiting his innings in his first full year as a pro after a major arm surgery is the best way he can do his job in the future, then his job is to stop "playing baseball" when they tell him to.

This is true in the literal sense that if management decides he will stop pitching, then yes, he will stop pitching. It would be completely insane for them to make that decision, but you are correct in saying that it is their call.

It's not Strasburg who is suggesting he be limited in innings, its the Nats management. If you want to play the business/job analogy, basically they are insisting on a furlough. Overall the business management feels that to make the books look good they will have their senior staff take off one week a month, no matter how busy they are because for the long term outlook of the company it may make them more money over the next 5 years. While they may be busy, someone less talented or with less experience will do the work. But by doing so they prevent the entire company from being shutdown so when the economy rebounds they can see long term growth.

And the Nats management are not "insane". They have a wide, long term look at success. They want to be successful for 5 years, 10 years, whatever not at the risk of this one season. It's not insane for an organziation to have that outlook. That's why teams don't just trade all of their prospects at the trade deadline every year. While it would make the more formitable in the current year, it could cripple many future years. The Nats aren't doing anything different than that. Based on their risk/reward formulas they feel the possible reward does not out weight the possible risk. Same reason why the Cards didn't trade Shelby Miller for Cliff Lee, or Tavares for Shane Victorino. By being risk averse you are not insane.

I am not saying I would do what they are doing, but its not insane.

I'm not exactly a doctor. But from what I gather, there are doctors who specialize in this, who have studied recovery from the surgery Strasburg is recovering from. And they've determined that beyond a certain workload, you're risking injury that would have an effect on the player that lasts longer than just this season.

Everything's a calculated risk in sports. You go on the information you have. Do you trade that prospect you might need in the future for the outfielder you need now? Maybe that prospect becomes Daric Barton, and maybe he becomes Dan Haren. Maybe the veteran you acquire gives you Mark Mulder's value, maybe he gives you Jim Edmonds'. But you go on the info you have.

So if your medical intel says pitching Strasburg beyond 160 innings is an X% risk of permanent damage to his arm, you might decide the risk of that occurrence (resulting in diminished value in future years) exceeds the potential value of his contribution for the rest of this season.

That's not insane. It's how you play poker. Some folks love risk, some are more risk averse.

More innings is more risk for injury. Nobody can credibly deny that. Most would agree that beyond a certain limit in a pitcher with a fresh ligament unaccustomed to a season's worth of work, at some point this relationship becomes a parabolic curve. The Nationals, the people on the planet with the greatest incentive to have him play, have decided that the slim chance of a World Series championship with Strasburg is not worth this risk of injury.

There is risk in pitching Strasburg down the stretch. The Nationals don't want to risk their most precious asset for a puncher's chance in the postseason. How is this not end of story?

cpebbles wrote:They should have made him pitch with a torn ulnar collateral ligament, since it's his job and all.

Oh he's hurt now? I didn't know that. Shouldn't pitch if you are hurt. Shut him down. Thanks for that insight, that really changes everything.

If the 2011 Cardinals can win a World Series, anybody stands a chance. You want to limit his work load? Cool, but setting aside your best arm during the playoffs is just stupid. They should have planned better.

jim wrote:

cpebbles wrote:They should have made him pitch with a torn ulnar collateral ligament, since it's his job and all.

Oh he's hurt now? I didn't know that. Shouldn't pitch if you are hurt. Shut him down. Thanks for that insight, that really changes everything.

The guy's ulnar collateral ligament was a tendon in his wrist less than two years ago, and it's been broken in to the tune of 44 professional innings before this season. So yeah, on a microscopic level he probably is hurt a lot more than you'd expect from 127 innings.

cpebbles wrote:the slim chance of a World Series championship with Strasburg

They are tied for the best record in baseball.

There is risk in pitching Strasburg down the stretch.

There was risk pitching him opening day. There was risk every pitch he threw all season. If they shut him down, there will be risk when he takes the ball in 2013, and there will be risk every time he throws a pitch for the rest of his career. They can sit him on the bench and never use him like that car that Cameron's father never drives in "Ferris Bueller's Day Off", but presumably at some point in Strasburg's MLB career they will in fact ask him to compete in a baseball game again, and then there will be risk.

How is this not end of story?

The World Series is important. Teams are, by and large, expected to try and win it.

We keep saying the same things to each other but it seems like there is simply a fundamental difference of opinion here. If one believes that decreasing the risk of Strasburg hurting himself (by some unknown, marginal amount; I think the people defending that decision would have to admit that) is more important than winning the World Series, then that's that. I think that when a team has a chance to win a championship that the players should go all-out to win a championship. If an angry God materialized in Nationals Park and said that He will smite Stephen Strasburg's elbow if said elbow is employed after September 1, then I think you'd have a case. But short of a divine guarantee of doom, the Nationals should try and win the World Series, because that's what baseball teams do.

Vidor wrote:
There was risk pitching him opening day. There was risk every pitch he threw all season. If they shut him down, there will be risk when he takes the ball in 2013

You're treating every pitch/outing as if there is the same risk for injury in each one which is incredibly inaccurate.

You get mad when people use the counter-argument "Why not pitch him everyday?" as if that is somehow an incredibly absurd idea....which it is. It's about equally absurd as saying that pitching 200 innings the year after Tj surgery is the same as pitching 100 innings the year after TJ surgery.