St. Louis Fans: Gutless?

[Cheddar Tom]

I really can't believe we're arguing about Matt Holliday's contributions in the year 2016 but....for the first 5 years of his contract he had a cumulative 141 OPS+ and hit .295/.385/.500. By wRC+, only Cabrera, Votto, Bautista, McCutchen and Ortiz were better.

[wart57]

I really can't believe we're arguing about Matt Holliday's contributions in the year 2016 but....for the first 5 years of his contract he had a cumulative 141 OPS+ and hit .295/.385/.500. By wRC+, only Cabrera, Votto, Bautista, McCutchen and Ortiz were better.

[Swirls]

I know what WAR means, but I certainly don't understand how it's compiled. Obviously defense has no part in it or Yadi would be in the top 3 every year.

Are you telling me that Carpenter, Diaz and Pisco have a lower WAR than his? And where in the NL does MH rank in WAR? Those numbers you show for 2014 to present are not impressive. That's 3 years he's batted #3 with the WAR of an 8 hole hitter.

WAR takes longevity into consideration. If you're hurt for damn near the entire year and don't accumulate very high counting stats, your WAR for that year is going to suck.

Defense does play a part in WAR - both in how skilled that player is at the position as well as a positional adjustment to account for easier vs harder positions. So does baserunning. So does offense. Yadi has, for the most part, scored excellently in the defensive side of WAR. However he's a godawful baserunner and has only been an average hitter a few times in his career. As such, he is not "in the top 3 every year" despite being one of the top defensive players in the league pretty much every year.

This year Carp, Diaz, and Piscotty absolutely have higher WARs than Holliday. Nobody is questioning that. Most people agree Holliday should not have been batting third in the lineup. Those other players are also in the prime of their career age-wise, whereas Holliday is in his late-30s and will only be around a couple more years. Surely you won't contest the fact that older players are, in general, much worse than younger players. At the end of their careers, all three of those players would kill to have had the career Matt Holliday has had (he'll get a bunch of Hall of Fame votes, but likely won't get in). Overall, Carpenter has had MVP level performance for the past few years - can he sustain a level close to that for the next decade like Holliday did? Piscotty and Diaz are rookies - who's to say they won't fall off a cliff after this year and spend the next decade as AAAA filler instead of with an MLB club?

[Medwick's Ghost]

I know what WAR means, but I certainly don't understand how it's compiled. Obviously defense has no part in it or Yadi would be in the top 3 every year.

Are you telling me that Carpenter, Diaz and Pisco have a lower WAR than his? And where in the NL does MH rank in WAR? Those numbers you show for 2014 to present are not impressive. That's 3 years he's batted #3 with the WAR of an 8 hole hitter.

WAR takes longevity into consideration. If you're hurt for damn near the entire year and don't accumulate very high counting stats, your WAR for that year is going to suck.

Defense does play a part in WAR - both in how skilled that player is at the position as well as a positional adjustment to account for easier vs harder positions. So does baserunning. So does offense. Yadi has, for the most part, scored excellently in the defensive side of WAR. However he's a godawful baserunner and has only been an average hitter a few times in his career. As such, he is not "in the top 3 every year" despite being one of the top defensive players in the league pretty much every year.

This year Carp, Diaz, and Piscotty absolutely have higher WARs than Holliday. Nobody is questioning that. Most people agree Holliday should not have been batting third in the lineup. Those other players are also in the prime of their career age-wise, whereas Holliday is in his late-30s and will only be around a couple more years. Surely you won't contest the fact that older players are, in general, much worse than younger players. At the end of their careers, all three of those players would kill to have had the career Matt Holliday has had (he'll get a bunch of Hall of Fame votes, but likely won't get in). Overall, Carpenter has had MVP level performance for the past few years - can he sustain a level close to that for the next decade like Holliday did? Piscotty and Diaz are rookies - who's to say they won't fall off a cliff after this year and spend the next decade as AAAA filler instead of with an MLB club?

I appreciate your informative, well thought out response. I've been beating this dying horse for 4 or 5 years with Card fans and I think I'm going to give it a rest. He has been moved to the 4 and that's a step in the right direction.

Numbers aside, the thing that REALLY bothers me is how he swings from the very heels every single AB, even when the game winning run is on third and a simple single would get the job done.

Also, it grinds me that over the years we have let so many good hitters like Hernandez, Polanco, Brian Jordan, Dimitri Young and others get away, yet hold on like grim death with MH. Oh well...life's not fair and neither is baseball.

[obucard]

Also, it grinds me that over the years we have let so many good hitters like Hernandez (career .821 OPS), Polanco (career .740 OPS), Brian Jordan (career .788 OPS), Dimitri Young (career .826 OPS) and others get away, yet hold on like grim death with MH (.876 OPS with StL). Oh well...life's not fair and neither is baseball.

If you're trolling, then this is funny stuff. If you're serious, then this belongs in the WTF thread.

[Cheddar Tom]

I can't believe Placido Polanco and Dmitri Young are being mentioned in te same sentence as Holliday....but Holliday has a contract that keeps him here thru the end of the season which is why they have held onto him like grim death.

[The Green Miles]

They let me go too, the sunzabiches.

[Molly]

They let me go too, the sunzabiches.

And from the looks of things, you need to step away from the buffet!!

[Medwick's Ghost]

I can't believe Placido Polanco and Dmitri Young are being mentioned in te same sentence as Holliday....but Holliday has a contract that keeps him here thru the end of the season which is why they have held onto him like grim death.

I'll say this and then I'm done with it: Every one of those mentioned (except for Dimitri) were complete ballplayers. MH is FAR from that. When you figure in the $ aspect it's a no brainer in my book. Holliday was/is a massive bust-ola.

G.O.M OUT!

[Cheddar Tom]

In no way is that true...Holliday was a superstar hitter for a 9-year period. Just because he wasn't a good defensive player or fast doesn't mean he wasn't worth his contract....his contract made him one of the greatest FA bargains of the last 20 yrs.