GatewayRedbirds.com

Fat Strat wrote:

I don't think it's fair to simply categorize Ludwick as an average corner outfielder.

Ludwick was rated as "exactly leauge average" last year in a article by Fangraphs... who literally called him "Mr. League Average". I would suspect, actually, that Westbrook might be the same guy among starting pitchers.

I don't know what they mean by league average, but I've always thought of Ludwick as "Mr. Solid Major Leaguer". Just a good player with no glaring holes in his game. Nothing off the charts, but a solid 50-60 across the board on the scout scale and maybe a 65 for power. Arm, baserunning, range, instincts, .... on and on. He's a ballplayer, whatever that means, and I just hate to see him go.

On the other hand Jay has impressed the hell out of me. He doesn't have all the tools that Ludwick does, but I think he did create a crowded situation out there. I would put him in that impossible to define and amorphous "ballplayer" category. He just does so many little things right that his production is probably going to be a little above what his natural tools would indicate.

ConeBone69 wrote:Goold has a pretty good article showing how close the two pitchers (Lynn and Kluber) actually are.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball ... 2bc8b.html

Kluber's 2010 AA (age 24): 6-6, 3.45 ERA ... 22 games/21 starts ... 122 2/3 innings ... 121 Hits allowed ... 40 walks/136 strikeouts ... .259 BA against ... 3.07 FIP ... .349 BABIP

Lynn's 2009 AA (age 22): 11-4, 2.92 ERA ... 22 games/22 starts ... 126 1/3 innings ... 117 hits allowed ... 51 walks/98 strikeouts ... .251 BA against ... 3.63 FIP ... .315 BABIP

Except that 2009 Lynn isn't what we've seen from him this year, and the strikeout difference is substantial. Not really a fair comparison.

I am out in Colorado climbing mountains. I looked into the sky and saw a jet plane heading west. Ryan Ludwick was looking out the window.

Good luck to you, Von Crushtoven. We will miss you.

I am out in Colorado climbing mountains. I looked into the sky and saw a jet plane heading west. Ryan Ludwick was looking out the window.

Good luck to you, Von Crushtoven. We will miss you.

Fat Strat wrote:Ludwick was rated as "exactly leauge average" last year in a article by Fangraphs... who literally called him "Mr. League Average". I would suspect, actually, that Westbrook might be the same guy among starting pitchers.

That's because in the article, the author stripped out replacement value runs, costing Ludwick 18+ runs of production.

Really, it's as simple as this: since becoming a Cardinal, Ludwick's OPS+ is 123 in over 1600 ABs. The whole point of ERA+ and OPS+ is to compare you to the league average. That's why it's such a useful and easy-to-understand stat.

At worst, you can knock Ludwick's value because he plays right field, which is pretty high up ("easy") on the defensive spectrum. However, a lot of the value he "loses" from this is made up for from his quality defense.

Westbrook is arguably the definition of league average. Calling Ludwick that is really, really selling him short.

Socnorb11 wrote:

ConeBone69 wrote:Goold has a pretty good article showing how close the two pitchers (Lynn and Kluber) actually are.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball ... 2bc8b.html

Kluber's 2010 AA (age 24): 6-6, 3.45 ERA ... 22 games/21 starts ... 122 2/3 innings ... 121 Hits allowed ... 40 walks/136 strikeouts ... .259 BA against ... 3.07 FIP ... .349 BABIP

Lynn's 2009 AA (age 22): 11-4, 2.92 ERA ... 22 games/22 starts ... 126 1/3 innings ... 117 hits allowed ... 51 walks/98 strikeouts ... .251 BA against ... 3.63 FIP ... .315 BABIP

Except that 2009 Lynn isn't what we've seen from him this year, and the strikeout difference is substantial. Not really a fair comparison.

If that is your response to the actual comparison presented to you above, you simply aren't going to budge on the issue at all. Lynn is also almost two years younger at the same level.

I've been at a wedding in Bethlehem, pa all weekend. Just wanted to log in and state for the record: this was not a good trade.

phinstd wrote:

Socnorb11 wrote:

ConeBone69 wrote:Goold has a pretty good article showing how close the two pitchers (Lynn and Kluber) actually are.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball ... 2bc8b.html

Kluber's 2010 AA (age 24): 6-6, 3.45 ERA ... 22 games/21 starts ... 122 2/3 innings ... 121 Hits allowed ... 40 walks/136 strikeouts ... .259 BA against ... 3.07 FIP ... .349 BABIP

Lynn's 2009 AA (age 22): 11-4, 2.92 ERA ... 22 games/22 starts ... 126 1/3 innings ... 117 hits allowed ... 51 walks/98 strikeouts ... .251 BA against ... 3.63 FIP ... .315 BABIP

Except that 2009 Lynn isn't what we've seen from him this year, and the strikeout difference is substantial. Not really a fair comparison.

If that is your response to the actual comparison presented to you above, you simply aren't going to budge on the issue at all. Lynn is also almost two years younger at the same level.

Kluber is only a year older, and he's dominating the Texas league compared to Lynn getting hit around in the PCL. Obviously the age and level mitigate the difference between them, but it's not difficult to see why someone would prefer Kluber. Striking out near 2 more batters per 9 innings while walking the same number of guys is a very important distinction.

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:

phinstd wrote:

Socnorb11 wrote:

ConeBone69 wrote:Goold has a pretty good article showing how close the two pitchers (Lynn and Kluber) actually are.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball ... 2bc8b.html

Kluber's 2010 AA (age 24): 6-6, 3.45 ERA ... 22 games/21 starts ... 122 2/3 innings ... 121 Hits allowed ... 40 walks/136 strikeouts ... .259 BA against ... 3.07 FIP ... .349 BABIP

Lynn's 2009 AA (age 22): 11-4, 2.92 ERA ... 22 games/22 starts ... 126 1/3 innings ... 117 hits allowed ... 51 walks/98 strikeouts ... .251 BA against ... 3.63 FIP ... .315 BABIP

Except that 2009 Lynn isn't what we've seen from him this year, and the strikeout difference is substantial. Not really a fair comparison.

If that is your response to the actual comparison presented to you above, you simply aren't going to budge on the issue at all. Lynn is also almost two years younger at the same level.

Kluber is only a year older, and he's dominating the Texas league compared to Lynn getting hit around in the PCL. Obviously the age and level mitigate the difference between them, but it's not difficult to see why someone would prefer Kluber. Striking out near 2 more batters per 9 innings while walking the same number of guys is a very important distinction.

Lynn did the exact same thing in the Texas League, at almost two years younger...keep up.

phinstd wrote:Lynn did the exact same thing in the Texas League, at almost two years younger...keep up.

But wasn't Kluber's K:BB and K/9 -- albeit at an older age -- considerably better than Lynn's?