P.6 Ludwick to SD; Westbrook and Pads prospect to STL

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Goold has a pretty good article showing how close the two pitchers (Lynn and Kluber) actually are.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball ... 2bc8b.html

Kluber's 2010 AA (age 24): 6-6, 3.45 ERA ... 22 games/21 starts ... 122 2/3 innings ... 121 Hits allowed ... 40 walks/136 strikeouts ... .259 BA against ... 3.07 FIP ... .349 BABIP

Lynn's 2009 AA (age 22): 11-4, 2.92 ERA ... 22 games/22 starts ... 126 1/3 innings ... 117 hits allowed ... 51 walks/98 strikeouts ... .251 BA against ... 3.63 FIP ... .315 BABIP

Except that 2009 Lynn isn't what we've seen from him this year, and the strikeout difference is substantial. Not really a fair comparison.

If that is your response to the actual comparison presented to you above, you simply aren't going to budge on the issue at all. Lynn is also almost two years younger at the same level.

Kluber is only a year older, and he's dominating the Texas league compared to Lynn getting hit around in the PCL. Obviously the age and level mitigate the difference between them, but it's not difficult to see why someone would prefer Kluber. Striking out near 2 more batters per 9 innings while walking the same number of guys is a very important distinction.

Lynn did the exact same thing in the Texas League, at almost two years younger...keep up.

No, a 7.0/3.6 K/BB is most assuredly not the same as a 10.0/2.9 K/BB.

[phins]

Lynn did the exact same thing in the Texas League, at almost two years younger...keep up.

But wasn't Kluber's K:BB and K/9 -- albeit at an older age -- considerably better than Lynn's?

Better, yes. Lynn has a better pedigree, a better pitcher's frame, the same stuff, and is at a higher level than Kluber.

So, if Lynn had repeated the Texas League this year, and fared well (which you would expect him to), that makes him a better prospect since he'd have the same stuff, same level of play, same stats, and be over a year younger?

That seems like silly rationale to me. I look at their stuff, age, and results at comparable levels, and don't see how it isn't:

Kluber = Lynn.

[phins]

Goold has a pretty good article showing how close the two pitchers (Lynn and Kluber) actually are.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball ... 2bc8b.html

Kluber's 2010 AA (age 24): 6-6, 3.45 ERA ... 22 games/21 starts ... 122 2/3 innings ... 121 Hits allowed ... 40 walks/136 strikeouts ... .259 BA against ... 3.07 FIP ... .349 BABIP

Lynn's 2009 AA (age 22): 11-4, 2.92 ERA ... 22 games/22 starts ... 126 1/3 innings ... 117 hits allowed ... 51 walks/98 strikeouts ... .251 BA against ... 3.63 FIP ... .315 BABIP

Except that 2009 Lynn isn't what we've seen from him this year, and the strikeout difference is substantial. Not really a fair comparison.

If that is your response to the actual comparison presented to you above, you simply aren't going to budge on the issue at all. Lynn is also almost two years younger at the same level.

Kluber is only a year older, and he's dominating the Texas league compared to Lynn getting hit around in the PCL. Obviously the age and level mitigate the difference between them, but it's not difficult to see why someone would prefer Kluber. Striking out near 2 more batters per 9 innings while walking the same number of guys is a very important distinction.

Lynn did the exact same thing in the Texas League, at almost two years younger...keep up.

No, a 7.0/3.6 K/BB is most assuredly not the same as a 10.0/2.9 K/BB.

Oh, forgive me. Now, we're ignoring stuff, age, and other results for K/BB ratio as our only telling sign.

[Bo Hart]

That seems like silly rationale to me. I look at their stuff, age, and results at comparable levels, and don't see how it isn't:

No, I was just pointing out that it was a pretty liberal use of the phrase "did the exact same thing" when Kluber's numbers were, in my opinion, considerably better.

I'm not implying that none of those other things (stuff, age, etc) matter... not in the least. I'm just saying, Kluber's numbers were better. Maybe those were just a product of being older than Lynn was, but maybe they weren't.

So I'm not agreeing or disagreeing.

[TGantz]

Goold has a pretty good article showing how close the two pitchers (Lynn and Kluber) actually are.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball ... 2bc8b.html

Kluber's 2010 AA (age 24): 6-6, 3.45 ERA ... 22 games/21 starts ... 122 2/3 innings ... 121 Hits allowed ... 40 walks/136 strikeouts ... .259 BA against ... 3.07 FIP ... .349 BABIP

Lynn's 2009 AA (age 22): 11-4, 2.92 ERA ... 22 games/22 starts ... 126 1/3 innings ... 117 hits allowed ... 51 walks/98 strikeouts ... .251 BA against ... 3.63 FIP ... .315 BABIP

Except that 2009 Lynn isn't what we've seen from him this year, and the strikeout difference is substantial. Not really a fair comparison.

If that is your response to the actual comparison presented to you above, you simply aren't going to budge on the issue at all. Lynn is also almost two years younger at the same level.

Kluber is only a year older, and he's dominating the Texas league compared to Lynn getting hit around in the PCL. Obviously the age and level mitigate the difference between them, but it's not difficult to see why someone would prefer Kluber. Striking out near 2 more batters per 9 innings while walking the same number of guys is a very important distinction.

Lynn did the exact same thing in the Texas League, at almost two years younger...keep up.

No, a 7.0/3.6 K/BB is most assuredly not the same as a 10.0/2.9 K/BB.

Oh, forgive me. Now, we're ignoring stuff, age, and other results for K/BB ratio as our only telling sign.

I don't know much about Lynn, but you're doing a good job convincing me that it was a good idea to not trade him away for a rental.

We had decent outfielders ready to replace Ludwick, and we desperately needed pitching because of injuries to our rotation. Some are labeling this as a move towards next year and that the team is ignoring the pennant race. It's a move that gives us a solid pitching option when we desperately needed pitching to even have a chance at the pennant, while unloading a little payroll in the process for next year.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Oh, forgive me. Now, we're ignoring stuff, age, and other results for K/BB ratio as our only telling sign.

We're talking about a 13 month difference in age, and for a pitcher. While it matters, and I mentioned it in my original post, it's not exactly a huge difference.

If the stuff is the same, we can only conclude that Kluber is better at using it, because he's put up consistently better peripherals.

As for other results, like I've mentioned, Lynn is getting batted around in AAA, and considering the main difference between him and Kluber is the missed bats, it provides a good bit of context to Lynn's profile as a prospect. And also like I mentioned, Kluber's consistently got a K/9 of 9+ with the same walk rate while Lynn is at 7+. That's a huge difference, and really a distinction between a strikeout pitcher and someone who's reliant on factors beyond himself in order to have great results.

To reiterate yet another point, I'm not saying that there's a chasm between the two pitchers, my words were "it's not difficult to see why someone would prefer Kluber". I don't really see how that's arguable.

[ConeBone69]

Goold has a pretty good article showing how close the two pitchers (Lynn and Kluber) actually are.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball ... 2bc8b.html

Kluber's 2010 AA (age 24): 6-6, 3.45 ERA ... 22 games/21 starts ... 122 2/3 innings ... 121 Hits allowed ... 40 walks/136 strikeouts ... .259 BA against ... 3.07 FIP ... .349 BABIP

Lynn's 2009 AA (age 22): 11-4, 2.92 ERA ... 22 games/22 starts ... 126 1/3 innings ... 117 hits allowed ... 51 walks/98 strikeouts ... .251 BA against ... 3.63 FIP ... .315 BABIP

Except that 2009 Lynn isn't what we've seen from him this year, and the strikeout difference is substantial. Not really a fair comparison.

Lynn is at Triple A this year and from most accounts has been promoted pretty aggressively. Another half to full year of Triple A and he should probably be ready to slide into the 5th spot in the big club's rotation. Kluber will probably need at least a year in Triple A if not more if he struggles. Which wouldn't be surprising for him or any other young pitcher. I like Kluber's K/9 rate but with his stuff I see him more as a reliever. "88-92 mph tailing fastball that he locates down in the zone. He's around the plate with his average slider and changeup."

[ConeBone69]

I don't see how Lynn is getting "batted around" in Triple A. 127 Hits in 122 innings with 103K/47BB. The only strange thing I see is that he had a spike in homeruns.

[Socnorb11]

Some here think that Lynn = Kluber. And others don't.

The Cleveland Indians were obviously in the camp that don't, and that's all that really matters.

[Magneto2.0]

Some here think that Lynn = Kluber. And others don't.

The Cleveland Indians were obviously in the camp that don't, and that's all that really matters.

This is a fact? Lynn was offered??