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themiddle54 wrote:

Socnorb11 wrote:

Famous Mortimer wrote:You highlight the bit where he says "almost every successful team", so you already know he's not just talking about the Cubs. Yes, it's one of the reasons the Cardinals have been successful...obviously. Should Theo not have done it that way, because the Cardinals did it too?

I just think it's ironic that he's on a CARDINALS forum, telling us how brilliant Theo is because he did what the Cardinals have been doing for a decade already. That's not brilliant. It's monkey see, monkey do.

So the guys who did this in the early 2000s with Boston, by doing it again in the early-2010s with Chicago, are just bums copying the guy who did it in the late-2000s with St. Louis?

Is that what I said?

The point is that what happened with the Cubs wasn't profound. The Cardinals have done it for a decade, so I'm not sure why anybody would bring it to a CARDINALS forum as if it's unheard of. As I Cardinals fan, I've never pretended that the Cardinals invented it, either.

Socnorb11 wrote:

themiddle54 wrote:

Socnorb11 wrote:

Famous Mortimer wrote:You highlight the bit where he says "almost every successful team", so you already know he's not just talking about the Cubs. Yes, it's one of the reasons the Cardinals have been successful...obviously. Should Theo not have done it that way, because the Cardinals did it too?

I just think it's ironic that he's on a CARDINALS forum, telling us how brilliant Theo is because he did what the Cardinals have been doing for a decade already. That's not brilliant. It's monkey see, monkey do.

So the guys who did this in the early 2000s with Boston, by doing it again in the early-2010s with Chicago, are just bums copying the guy who did it in the late-2000s with St. Louis?

Is that what I said?

Yes.

Actually, it was the Cubs fan (zac) that implied that this was something new for Theo. Not me.

MY point (for like the 4th time) is that it's not new to the Cardinals, or this forum.

By the way, the 2004 Red Sox weren't exactly "home grown".

Kevin Millar? Nope
Mark Bellhorn? Nope
Manny? Nope
Bill Mueller? Nope
Johnny Damon? Nope
Big Papi? Nope

The starting rotation? Not one of those guys was drafted & developed by Theo or the Red Sox.

Socnorb11 wrote:By the way, the 2004 Red Sox weren't exactly "home grown".

Kevin Millar? Nope
Mark Bellhorn? Nope
Manny? Nope
Bill Mueller? Nope
Johnny Damon? Nope
Big Papi? Nope

The starting rotation? Not one of those guys was drafted & developed by Theo or the Red Sox.

Now go look at the 2007 team. Hell, most of the good players on the current team were drafted or signed under Theo.

davhern wrote:

Socnorb11 wrote:By the way, the 2004 Red Sox weren't exactly "home grown".

Kevin Millar? Nope
Mark Bellhorn? Nope
Manny? Nope
Bill Mueller? Nope
Johnny Damon? Nope
Big Papi? Nope

The starting rotation? Not one of those guys was drafted & developed by Theo or the Red Sox.

Now go look at the 2007 team. Hell, most of the good players on the current team were drafted or signed under Theo.

Nobody in the 2007 starting rotation was drafted/developed by Theo, either. Dice-K was more of a free agent than anything else.

A few of the everyday players were from Boston's system, but the core of that team was Mike Lowell, Big Papi, and Manny............ none of which were drafted or developed by Theo.

Edited to say: See i'm late to the party....but whatever.

FWIW, the 2004 red sox weren't exactly a team built around homegrown talent. They had Manny, Damon, Ortiz, Bellhorn, Millar, Cabrera, etc.... none of whom they drafted. I think they drafted Youk, Nixon, and Varitek who certainly contributed but - outside Youk - didn't contribute a ton.

The pitching staff was Schilling, Pedro, Lowe, and that corn row douche...arroyo. Foulke was the closer. None of them coming through the farm iirc.

There were some parts, but the meat and potatoes of the 2004 team didn't come from their farm.

2013, otoh, had a bit more I think.

And, the whole notion of building through the farm hadn't caught on for most of the major teams by that point. The Cardinals had traded for or signed most of their players between rolen, edmonds, Carpenter, Suppan, Williams, Renteria, Eckstein, Vina, blah blah blah. The Marlins had a lot of success stocking the farm and making runs then trading away all the talent to restock the farm...but that wasn't the norm.

Socnorb11 wrote:

davhern wrote:

Socnorb11 wrote:By the way, the 2004 Red Sox weren't exactly "home grown".

Kevin Millar? Nope
Mark Bellhorn? Nope
Manny? Nope
Bill Mueller? Nope
Johnny Damon? Nope
Big Papi? Nope

The starting rotation? Not one of those guys was drafted & developed by Theo or the Red Sox.

Now go look at the 2007 team. Hell, most of the good players on the current team were drafted or signed under Theo.

Nobody in the 2007 starting rotation was drafted/developed by Theo, either. Dice-K was more of a free agent than anything else.

A few of the everyday players were from Boston's system, but the core of that team was Mike Lowell, Big Papi, and Manny............ none of which were drafted or developed by Theo.

Dustin Pedroia was really good that year and great the next year. Ellsbury came up and was a big part of what they did late and in the postseason.

I didn't realize Lester played as little of a role as he did that year, but there were definitely significant contributions already from that batch of players.

davhern wrote:
Dustin Pedroia was really good that year and great the next year. Ellsbury came up and was a big part of what they did late and in the postseason.

I didn't realize Lester played as little of a role as he did that year, but there were definitely significant contributions already from that batch of players.

Lester missed time due to cancer that year.

Honestly, the 2016 Cubs aren't as "home grown" as people probably think.

Theo didn't draft Rizzo, Zobrist, Addison Russell, Baez, Soler, Fowler, Heyward, Montero............. or any member of the starting rotation.

He gets credit for drafting Bryant and Contreras, and he gets credit for making some really good trades, but it's not necessarily a "home grown" team, top to bottom, by any stretch.