The Video Game Thread

[PujolJunkie]

It'd be easier if you just said you hate everything not related to the Wii.

It'd be easier if you just said you love everything Microsoft.

Seriously, this is as much "motion controls" as the EyeToy is. Hell, the Sixaxis is more "motion controls" than Project Natal.

Might as well change the thread title back to "The New XBox LIVE Experience." I eagerly await dozens of posts extolling the virtues of motion controls, 4 years later.

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Oh and lets tone it down everyone.

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[Michael]

Whether I can dig up your own posts doesn't change that fact that calling me a Wii fanboy does not refute my arguments that Project Natal (a) is a souped up version of the EyeToy, and (b) is designed to compete with the PS3, and not the Wii. If Microsoft was going after the Wii, they would have unveiled their X-mote wand controller developed last year.

I don't agree with any of this. The Natal is all about completing with the Wii. Not that I think MS is going to seriously compete with Nintendo in the casual market this generation. This is a first attempt at a next gen strategy.

[BenNX74205]

Whether I can dig up your own posts doesn't change that fact that calling me a Wii fanboy does not refute my arguments that Project Natal (a) is a souped up version of the EyeToy, and (b) is designed to compete with the PS3, and not the Wii. If Microsoft was going after the Wii, they would have unveiled their X-mote wand controller developed last year.

I don't agree with any of this. The Natal is all about completing with the Wii. Not that I think MS is going to seriously compete with Nintendo in the casual market this generation. This is a first attempt at a next gen strategy.

I don't agree with any of this either. Bringing it out as part of the 360 "experience" is setting it up for failure, and makes no sense. Whether this is a "next gen strategy" or not, peripheral control methods are traditionally undersupported because only a fraction of the market. And making games that require a peripheral like this generally don't get made because the sales potential is minimal.

Look at Wii Fit, which uses the Balance Board and is one of the most successful peripherals of all time. There are almost as many Balance Boards out there as there are PS3s, but games that have Balance Board "support" virtually never require that you own the Balance Board. It took one of the most successful pieces of software of this entire generation to push Balance Boards the way it has, yet the only games that come out specifically for it are more fitness games. Peripherals live and (more often) die by software, and with the current economic situation coupled with the high development costs for HD consoles, making games for such a narrow niche is a something I expect few to undertake.

The Wii Remote was developed to be a stand-alone, add-on peripheral for the Gamecube. But Nintendo came out with the Wii console and made it the default control method for the system because peripherals don't sell. If Wii had come with standard controls AND a separate motion controller, it would have been as unsuccessful as the Gamecube, because developers would continue making games for standard controls. They even allowed developers to have classic controls if they really wanted to (hence, the "Classic Controller"), but because it's not the primary control scheme, 99% of games aren't optimized for classic controllers.

The only thing I agree with here is that MS is not gunning for the Wii. They're gunning for Sony. That's why the XBox line was first introduced - to stop Sony from taking over the livingroom. If Microsoft were using Natal to come after the Wii and the casual market, they would have released this:

Serious question - how does the Sixaxis have more motion controls than the Natal?

I probably should have been more specific. Both Project Natal and the Wii Remote are "motion controllers," but their approaches to motion control are (obviously) drastically different. The Sixaxis is much more "Wii Remote style" motion controls than Project Natal. It's built into the handheld controller. I think we can all agree that Project Natal is at least an "EyeToy style" motion controller. There were fighting games for EyeToy. There were fitness games for EyeToy. They didn't sell much, because EyeToy was in a small fraction of homes. Natal has much more technology inside it, but if all that is used for is making a better camera-based fitness or fighting game, it's going to sell like the EyeToy. Maybe worse, since there aren't 100 million 360s out there.

[AdmiralKird]

From the demos I've seen, Project Natal's potential is very impressive. I'd like to see if the device though is truly able to map the human body to a wireform and correctly translate all 3D movements. Something tells me its going to be quite imperfect with only one vantage point.

However, if it was truly able to render a 3D stick figure based on a single CMOS camera then this has the potential to blow something like WiiFit out of the water in terms of accurately gauging true performance. However I would have no confidence in Microsoft being able to market an XBox and Natal to WiiFit's market.

I don't really see a huge market for this device though. I highly doubt the resolution of this device will allow it to accurately translate the precise movements of a wii remote for various games.

[clevername]

please explain how this can't be used for a game like Wii Sports without the remote.

No one has said it does anything to replace the actual controller. And the Wii has games that need button presses just like the other two systems. Wii Sports and its ilk do not. And if there are button presses in those simplistic games they can be easily simulated with different motions.

Don't be so defensive about the Wii and its precious Wiimote. There's room for everyone.

[BenNX74205]

please explain how this can't be used for a game like Wii Sports without the remote.

No one has said it does anything to replace the actual controller. And the Wii has games that need button presses just like the other two systems. Wii Sports and its ilk do not. And if there are button presses in those simplistic games they can be easily simulated with different motions.

Don't be so defensive about the Wii and its precious Wiimote. There's room for everyone.

I never said it couldn't be used for a Wii Sports sans remote. I even said that it could do some of the Wii Sports BETTER than Wii Sports (boxing, for one). Not sure what point you are trying to make here.

Microsoft put Steven Spielberg up there specifically to say the Natal "removes the controller from the equation." If this thing is actually going to have an impact beyond tacked-on EyeToy-esque support it HAS to replace the actual controller. The Wii exists because the "Wiimote-as-Gamecube-peripheral" original concept would not have been successful; the experience needs to be centered around the input method. Why wasn't there a Halo demonstration for the Natal camera? This is Microsoft; they recently put out a Halo RTS and showed off two new Halo games during the conference, but can't work up a way to show how this thing would benefit their biggest cash cow?

The difference with Wii needing button presses and HD consoles needing button presses is that the Wii remote/nunchuck is held separately, one part in each hand. You can gesture with one hand while pointing and operating buttons with the other. Putting it in two hands opens up the possibility of meaningful motions. With a two-handed, dual-analog, 12-button controller using motion, you get the Sixaxis demo with some guy flying a plane by spazzing out and moving the whole controller all over the place. You'll notice most PS3 games don't actually use motion for this reason. I don't see how holding a controller in front of a camera and moving it around would produce an appreciably different experience.

You're right, there's room for everyone. I never said "we have the Wiimote; we don't need this." I never said "we have the EyeToy; we don't need this." I said this thing isn't designed to compete against the Wii, but against the PS3. That's why it is a camera and not the fabled X-mote. And since it isn't going to come standard with the system from day one, it is not going to be owned by more than a fraction of the total userbase (like the EyeToy). It's going to be standalone and it's going to be expensive, which to me says it isn't going to get a lot of meaningful support. Try not to be so defensive about 360's precious camera.

[MrCrowesGarden]

A new report from Sony (sorry, satellite producers call us all the time trying to book interviews... no link): The new PSP is going to be half the size it currently is and will be all digital.

[BenNX74205]

A new report from Sony (sorry, satellite producers call us all the time trying to book interviews... no link): The new PSP is going to be half the size it currently is and will be all digital.

It's an artist's conception, but it fits the description of a screen that slides up to reveal the face buttons, cell phone style.

I like the version of the PSP I have much more than this, though I hate the disc drive. Theoretically older users will be able to download all games the same way PSP Go! users will be able to, so moving forward I hope to just download and avoid the disc drive altogether.

Waits patiently for those claiming I don't own a PSP.

[Michael]

There are technical differences with the Wii, but it's aimed directly at them. The MS design is even simpler and more casual than Nintendo's design (we can debate the effectiveness, but that's not the point). The eyetoy was basically a flop, so there's no way MS is trying to complete with that. At the E3 conference MS basically said they've got the hardcore market cornered now that they have 1080p and MSG, now we're setting our sights on Nintendo's casual market. If you notice in the speech they kept emphasizing eases of use and fmaily fun. Does that sound like a company competing with Sony? I agree, that this isn't going to put a serious chink in Nintendo's armor, but MS is setting themselves up for nextgen. Microsoft is like the Borg.

[BenNX74205]

There are technical differences with the Wii, but it's aimed directly at them. The MS design is even simpler and more casual than Nintendo's design (we can debate the effectiveness, but that's not the point). The eyetoy was basically a flop, so there's no way MS is trying to complete with that. At the E3 conference MS basically said they've got the hardcore market cornered with 1080p and MSG, now we're setting our sights on Nintendo's casual market. If you notice in the speech they kept emphasizing eases of use and fmaily fun. Does that sound like a company competing with Sony? I agree, that this isn't going to put a serious chink in Nintnedo's armor, but MS is setting themselves up for nextgen. Microsoft is like the Borg.

Microsoft marketed this thing like a Wii competitor, I agree 110%. But the XBox exists to protect the computer market from Sony/PlayStation setting a course for taking over the living room. MS bought this company a year ago, but they're showing it now and saying "wait til next year" before it ever comes out. If they were truly gunning for the Wii, it would have been pushed into high gear and already be out. Next year is far too late to try and take on the Wii. By the time Natal comes out Wii will own 50% marketshare; to paraphrase PS2-era Sony, now it's a fight for second place. And MS has consistently been positioning its products and price points to combat Sony, regardless of what they say in their marketing. If they were truly truly coming after the Wii and motion controls, why not combine the amazing abilities of Natal with a Wii remote knockoff. THAT opens up a lot more possibilities than either technology standing alone. That's making Wii-style motion controls *better* instead of making a completely different system of motion controls. Especially one mighty similar to (the more successful version of) PlayStation's motion controls.