Elite 8: 1. Barry Bonds vs. 2. Stan Musial

[Fat Strat]

Barry Bonds


Bio

By the year 2000, Bonds was already regarded as a surefire Hall of Famer, but it was in the beginning of the next millennium when Bonds would surpass his peers and reach a level of offensive production that only a select few in the history of the game have achieved. In 1999, he hit 34 home runs in just 355 at-bats in just 102 games. In 2000, at age 36, Bonds hit .306, with a slugging percentage of .688 (career best at that time), and hit 49 home runs in just 143 games (also a career high to that point), while collecting a league-leading 117 walks. He had started off that season even hotter, hitting 28 home runs and slugging over .730 at the All-Star break, but some minor injuries on the season quieted him down somewhat.

The next year, however, he would make his 2000 season look pathetic by comparison. Barry Bonds put on an offensive show in 2001. In his team's first 50 games, he hit 28 home runs, ending the season with 73 home runs, a new major league record. He hit 39 home runs by the All-star break (ML record), hit a home run every 6.52 at-bats (ML record - McGwire in '98 hit one every 7.2), drew 177 walks (ML record at the time), and had a .515 on-base percentage, a feat not seen since Mickey Mantle and Ted Williams some 40+ years before him. He also had an ML record and absolutely absurd .863 slugging percentage (411 total bases in just 476 at-bats), and his OPS (on-base + slugging) was minuscule percentage points behind Babe Ruth in 1920 for the highest of all time

Barry Bonds' statistics

Code: Select all

 Year Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG *OPS+  TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP 
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
 1986 21 PIT NL 113  413   72   92  26  3  16   48  36  7  65 102  .223  .330  .416  103  172   2   2   2   2   4 RoY-6
 1987 22 PIT NL 150  551   99  144  34  9  25   59  32 10  54  88  .261  .329  .492  114  271   0   3   3   3   4
 1988 23 PIT NL 144  538   97  152  30  5  24   58  17 11  72  82  .283  .368  .491  147  264   0   2  14   2   3
 1989 24 PIT NL 159  580   96  144  34  6  19   58  32 10  93  93  .248  .351  .426  125  247   1   4  22   1   9
 1990 25 PIT NL 151  519  104  156  32  3  33  114  52 13  93  83  .301  .406  .565  170  293   0   6  15   3   8 SS,MVP-1,AS
 1991 26 PIT NL 153  510   95  149  28  5  25  116  43 13 107  73  .292  .410  .514  161  262   0  13  25   4   8 SS,MVP-2
 1992 27 PIT NL 140  473  109  147  36  5  34  103  39  8 127  69  .311  .456  .624  205  295   0   7  32   5   9 SS,MVP-1,AS
 1993 28 SFG NL 159  539  129  181  38  4  46  123  29 12 126  79  .336  .458  .677  206  365   0   7  43   2  11 SS,MVP-1,AS
 1994 29 SFG NL 112  391   89  122  18  1  37   81  29  9  74  43  .312  .426  .647  182  253   0   3  18   6   3 SS,MVP-4,AS
 1995 30 SFG NL 144  506  109  149  30  7  33  104  31 10 120  83  .294  .431  .577  168  292   0   4  22   5  12 MVP-12,AS
 1996 31 SFG NL 158  517  122  159  27  3  42  129  40  7 151  76  .308  .461  .615  186  318   0   6  30   1  11 SS,MVP-5,AS
 1997 32 SFG NL 159  532  123  155  26  5  40  101  37  8 145  87  .291  .446  .585  170  311   0   5  34   8  13 SS,MVP-5,AS
 1998 33 SFG NL 156  552  120  167  44  7  37  122  28 12 130  92  .303  .438  .609  177  336   1   6  29   8  15 MVP-8,AS
 1999 34 SFG NL 102  355   91   93  20  2  34   83  15  2  73  62  .262  .389  .617  162  219   0   3   9   3   6 MVP-24
 2000 35 SFG NL 143  480  129  147  28  4  49  106  11  3 117  77  .306  .440  .688  191  330   0   7  22   3   6 SS,MVP-2,AS
 2001 36 SFG NL 153  476  129  156  32  2  73  137  13  3 177  93  .328  .515  .863  262  411   0   2  35   9   5 SS,MVP-1,AS
 2002 37 SFG NL 143  403  117  149  31  2  46  110   9  2 198  47  .370  .582  .799  275  322   0   2  68   9   4 SS,MVP-1,AS
 2003 38 SFG NL 130  390  111  133  22  1  45   90   7  0 148  58  .341  .529  .749  231  292   0   2  61  10   7 SS,MVP-1,AS
 2004 39 SFG NL 147  373  129  135  27  3  45  101   6  1 232  41  .362  .609  .812  260  303   0   3 120   9   5 SS,MVP-1,AS
 2005 40 SFG NL  14   42    8   12   1  0   5   10   0  0   9   6  .286  .404  .667  177   28   0   1   3   0   0
 2006 41 SFG NL 130  367   74   99  23  0  26   77   3  0 115  51  .270  .454  .545  156  200   0   1  38  10   9
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
 21 Seasons         9507      2841     77     1930    141    1485  .299  .443  .608  182        4  89 645 103 152
               2860      2152      587    734      509   2426                            5784
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
 162 Game Avg        539  122  161  33  4  42  109  29  8 137  84  .299  .443  .608  182  328   0   5  37   6   9
 Career High    159  580  129  181  44  9  73  137  52 13 232 102  .370  .609  .863  275  411   2  13 120  10  15

Most similar hitters:
Willie Mays (786) *
Babe Ruth (772) *
Frank Robinson (754) *
Hank Aaron (725) *
Mel Ott (714) *
Rafael Palmeiro (672)
Jimmie Foxx (661) *
Ted Williams (659) *
Mickey Mantle (615) *
Reggie Jackson (611) *

vs.

Stan Musial



Bio

Stanley Frank Musial, original Stanis?aw Franciszek Musia?, nicknamed "Stan the Man" (born November 21, 1920 in Pittsburgh area town of Donora, Pennsylvania, which is also the birth place of Major League Baseball players Ken Griffey, Sr. and Ken Griffey, Jr.), is an American former player in Major League Baseball who played 22 seasons for the St. Louis Cardinals from 1941 to 1963.

Stats

Code: Select all

Year Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG *OPS+  TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP 
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
 1941 20 STL NL  12   47    8   20   4  0   1    7   1      2   1  .426  .449  .574  179   27   0           0   0
 1942 21 STL NL 140  467   87  147  32 10  10   72   6     62  25  .315  .397  .490  151  229   5           2   3 MVP-12
 1943 22 STL NL 157  617  108  220  48 20  13   81   9     72  18  .357  .425  .562  180  347  10           2  17 MVP-1,AS
 1944 23 STL NL 146  568  112  197  51 14  12   94   7     90  28  .347  .440  .549  175  312   4           5   7 MVP-4,AS
 1946 25 STL NL 156  624  124  228  50 20  16  103   7     73  31  .365  .434  .587  183  366   2           3   7 MVP-1,AS
 1947 26 STL NL 149  587  113  183  30 13  19   95   4     80  24  .312  .398  .504  134  296   6           4  18 MVP-20,AS
 1948 27 STL NL 155  611  135  230  46 18  39  131   7     79  34  .376  .450  .702  200  429   1           3  18 MVP-1,AS
 1949 28 STL NL 157  612  128  207  41 13  36  123   3    107  38  .338  .438  .624  176  382   0           2  12 MVP-2,AS
 1950 29 STL NL 146  555  105  192  41  7  28  109   5     87  36  .346  .437  .596  163  331   0           3  11 MVP-2,AS
 1951 30 STL NL 152  578  124  205  30 12  32  108   4  5  98  40  .355  .449  .614  182  355   1           1   6 MVP-2,AS
 1952 31 STL NL 154  578  105  194  42  6  21   91   7  7  96  29  .336  .432  .538  167  311   0           2  11 MVP-5,AS
 1953 32 STL NL 157  593  127  200  53  9  30  113   3  4 105  32  .337  .437  .609  169  361   0           0  10 MVP-8,AS
 1954 33 STL NL 153  591  120  195  41  9  35  126   1  7 103  39  .330  .428  .607  166  359   0   7       4  20 MVP-6,AS
 1955 34 STL NL 154  562   97  179  30  5  33  108   5  4  80  39  .319  .408  .566  156  318   2   4  19   8  12 MVP-8,AS
 1956 35 STL NL 156  594   87  184  33  6  27  109   2  0  75  39  .310  .386  .522  142  310   3   7  15   3  19 MVP-9,AS
 1957 36 STL NL 134  502   82  176  38  3  29  102   1  1  66  34  .351  .422  .612  172  307   1   8  19   2  13 MVP-2,AS
 1958 37 STL NL 135  472   64  159  35  2  17   62   0  0  72  26  .337  .423  .528  146  249   0   4  26   1  19 MVP-12,AS
 1959 38 STL NL 115  341   37   87  13  2  14   44   0  2  60  25  .255  .364  .428  106  146   0   3  11   0  12 AS
 1960 39 STL NL 116  331   49   91  17  1  17   63   1  1  41  34  .275  .354  .486  120  161   0   4   7   2   5 MVP-16,AS
 1961 40 STL NL 123  372   46  107  22  4  15   70   0  0  52  35  .288  .371  .489  118  182   0   6  17   1   7 AS
 1962 41 STL NL 135  433   57  143  18  1  19   82   3  0  64  46  .330  .416  .508  138  220   0   5   4   3  13 MVP-10,AS
 1963 42 STL NL 124  337   34   86  10  2  12   58   2  0  35  43  .255  .325  .404  101  136   0   5   9   2   3 AS
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
 22 Seasons        10972      3630    177     1951     31     696  .331  .417  .559  159       35  53 127  53 243
               3026      1949      725    475       78   1599                            6134
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
 162 Game Avg        587  104  194  39  9  25  104   4  2  86  37  .331  .417  .559  159  328   2   3   7   3  13
 Career High    157  624  135  230  53 20  39  131   9  7 107  46  .376  .450  .702  200  429  10   8  26   8  20

Most Similar Hitters
Carl Yastrzemski (763) *
Willie Mays (749) *
Mel Ott (742) *
Dave Winfield (732) *
Eddie Murray (723) *
Lou Gehrig (721) *
Frank Robinson (713) *
Jimmie Foxx (694) *
Rafael Palmeiro (690)
Hank Aaron (664) *

[jim]

Bonds, easily.

Here are their WARP3's, life/peak/seasons over 10:

Bonds:
233.1/14/16.2

Musial:
197.4/10/15.5

It's not even close really. Look, I don't like Barry Bonds either. I think he's a complete wipe. I hope he doesn't break Aaron's record. But what he has done on the field may make him the greatest player to ever play the game. You have to give him credit for that, you have to put your personal opinions aside, and vote on the results on the field. If you think he was juiced up, I would invite you to read a very interesting chapter in the book Baseball Between the Numbers about what the stats tell us about the steroid era. In a nutshell, the stats don't say anything about the steroid era. It's not saying they don't have an impact, it's saying that you can't see the impact in the numbers.

It's Barry Bonds, and I don't like it either.

[MDCardsFan]

Bonds, easily.

Here are their WARP3's, life/peak/seasons over 10:

Bonds:
233.1/14/16.2

Musial:
197.4/10/15.5

But what he has done on the field may make him the greatest player to ever play the game. You have to give him credit for that, you have to put your personal opinions aside, and vote on the results on the field.

Actually, I don't. As far as I'm concerned, the damage he has done to the game exceeds his feats on the field. That's my honest to goodness opinion and I'm sticking with it.

When all is said and done, you have a bunch of individual accomplishments, several of which are tainted in the eyes of many, and in my own opinion, some of which never would have been reached with a systemic program of chemical enhancement prolonging his period of peak performance.

Stan Musial did more for baseball than Barry Bonds could ever hope too. And he was pretty darn good on the field as well.

I understand where your coming from, but I just can't agree.

[jim]

I understand where your coming from, but I just can't agree.

And believe me, I understand where you are coming from. But what Barry Bonds has done on the field could make him the greatest player of all time.

[MDCardsFan]

I understand where your coming from, but I just can't agree.

And believe me, I understand where you are coming from. But what Barry Bonds has done on the field could make him the greatest player of all time.

I Guess it depends on how one defines "Greatest".

[cardinalkarp]

I understand where your coming from, but I just can't agree.

And believe me, I understand where you are coming from. But what Barry Bonds has done on the field could make him the greatest player of all time, IF HE WOULDN'T HAVE TAKEN STEROIDS

Edited.

[jim]

I understand where your coming from, but I just can't agree.

And believe me, I understand where you are coming from. But what Barry Bonds has done on the field could make him the greatest player of all time, IF HE WOULDN'T HAVE TAKEN STEROIDS

Edited.

Nobody knows the extent or the benefit of taking steroids. The statistical evidence shows absolutely nothing about steroid use. If we knew the exact benefit of taking steroids, and we knew that Bonds took them, and we knew he was the only one and playing with an unfair advantage that the rest of the field didn't have, then I could see making the statement.

But, we don't know the extent or the benefit, we don't know exactly what he did or didn't take. Rather than speculate on this or that, I've chosen to simply look at performance, and his performance has no peer except for maybe Ruth. And that's maybe, depending on how you look at it.

He has damaged the game, there is no question in my mind about that. But, if I were to take that into account I would vote for a guy putting a needle in his butt over a guy who jumped up in the stands and beat a guys senseless who was confined to a wheelchair. Plenty of lowlifes in the game of baseball, Bonds maybe one of them but I'd be willing to bet all of you have voted for guys who have moral standards that aren't the greatest.

[maddash]

I understand where your coming from, but I just can't agree.

And believe me, I understand where you are coming from. But what Barry Bonds has done on the field could make him the greatest player of all time, IF HE WOULDN'T HAVE TAKEN STEROIDS

Edited.

Nobody knows the extent or the benefit of taking steroids. The statistical evidence shows absolutely nothing about steroid use. If we knew the exact benefit of taking steroids, and we knew that Bonds took them, and we knew he was the only one and playing with an unfair advantage that the rest of the field didn't have, then I could see making the statement.

But, we don't know the extent or the benefit, we don't know exactly what he did or didn't take. Rather than speculate on this or that, I've chosen to simply look at performance, and his performance has no peer except for maybe Ruth. And that's maybe, depending on how you look at it.

He has damaged the game, there is no question in my mind about that. But, if I were to take that into account I would vote for a guy putting a needle in his butt over a guy who jumped up in the stands and beat a guys senseless who was confined to a wheelchair. Plenty of lowlifes in the game of baseball, Bonds maybe one of them but I'd be willing to bet all of you have voted for guys who have moral standards that aren't the greatest.

I agree. And if we point fingers at Bonds for steroid usage, who's going to be the first to point the finger at guys like Aaron or Mays for taking amphetamines? Personally, I don't think either act is one we should just excuse, but they're also something that we have to assume everyone did, and that their "boost" given to the player (if any) can't be measured.

Bonds is a jerk, but so was Teddy Ballgame. Bonds probably took a substance that almost everyone agrees was tantamount to cheating, but you also have to assume that guys like Aaron and Mays did to. Are we really holding those players to the same standards we're holding Bonds?

[Jocephus]

this thread is gonna get so roided

[robbotis]

I understand where your coming from, but I just can't agree.

And believe me, I understand where you are coming from. But what Barry Bonds has done on the field could make him the greatest player of all time, IF HE WOULDN'T HAVE TAKEN STEROIDS

Edited.

Ah, much better.

He would have been an all time great, but not the BEST ever.