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With all the pitching talk whats the best starting 5 you can remember, not only for the Cards, but for other teams as well, since you've been watching baseball. I guess for me it was when I was 11 years old...the 1993 Braves. Glavine won 22 and Maddux 20. Heck STEVE FRICKING AVERY went 18-6. Smoltz "ONLY" won 15. Funny thing about that team is those four guys each had 35 plus starts. The number 5 man (Pete SMith) had like 14. Crazy.

As far as Cards teams, its a tie between 2001 (Matty Mo winning 22, DK with 16) and 2004 (Suppan with 16, Morris/Marquis/Carp with 15 each, Woody with 11).

What say you?

That '93 Braves staff was pretty good. Before Avery fell apart, it seemed like everybody thought he was the second coming back then though.

The best Cards staff I've personally seen has got to be the '04 staff. Nobody really dominated but just really consistent across the board.

Based on what I've read and heard I would think the Cards '85 staff would have to be on there somewhere with two 20 game winners. I though Tudor was great as a kid growing up.

It's tough to beat those Braves teams - 3 HOF starters (well, Smoltz may be close. Those 3 years as a top closer should be considered akin to an 18 win season as a starter)

The '04 team was probably the deepest and most consistent, but as you point out- 2001 had two hosses at the top and a red-hot wildcard in Woody.

For untapped- or not completely tapped- potential, it's hard to ignore the 1969 Mets. Tom Seaver and Jerry Koosman had long careers ahead of them, as did Tug McGraw in the bullpen. Plus, they had some Nolan Ryan kid in the bullpen that ended up being pretty good. I think he eventually became a starter, though.

The '86 Mets can't be ignored. Even though none of them reached full potential, Doc Gooden, Sid Fernandez, and Ron Darling had their whole careers in front of them- all good ones, too- while Rick Aguilera became a very good closer and Bobby Ojeda was in the middle of a very good career shortened too soon.

The Dodgers back in the 60's had Koufax and Drysdale at the top end. You could put three floating turds with those guys and still have a spectacular staff.

The Orioles' staff in the late 60's/early 70's was the epitome of the deep staff that the '04 Redbirds fashioned.

But the bottom line is that, yes- the early to mid 90's Braves with Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz, and Avery and then Neagle, and then a youngster by the name of Jason Schmidt..... Probably best ever.

The Baltimore Orioles staff from 1969 - 1971. Those staffs had a total of 9 twenty game winners over those three seasons.

The went to the WS each year. Losing to the 'Miracle Mets' in '69, beating the Reds in '70, and losing to the Pirates in '71.

In 1971 they had 4 20 game winners:

Mike Cuellar 20-9
Jim Palmer 20-9
Pat Dobson 20-8
Dave McNally 21-5 (and injuries limited him to 30 starts that year)

pop_haines wrote:1971 Baltimore Orioles

Dave McNally 21-5
Mike Cuellar 20-9
Jim Palmer 20-9
Pat Dobson 20-8

Beat ya by 2 minutes Pop!

I remember the Astro teams of the 1980's that had some great pitchers, but didn't always win a lot because the team could not score runs.

1983 - 1985: Joe Niekro, Nolan Ryan, Bob Knepper, Mike Scott

That's two HOF starters, and two guys who won 100+ games during their career; for awhile Scott was probably a top 5 starter in the NL.

The 1979 team had Niekro, JR Richard, Ken Forsch and Joaquin Andujar.


I also remember the 1989 A's with Dave Stewart (21-9), Mike Moore (19-11), Bob Welch (17-8), Storm Davis (19-7).

Hungary Jack wrote:I also remember the 1989 A's with Dave Stewart (21-9), Mike Moore (19-11), Bob Welch (17-8), Storm Davis (19-7).

Maybe the Deacon's best job. Stewart had been a swingman in LA and was looking for a job after having picked up a transvestite prostitute when he came to Oakland, Welch was fighting alcohol problems when he departed LA, Mike Moore had been scarred by years of playing in an extreme hitters park for a horrible team in Seattle, and Storm Davis had been relegated to the bullpen for a horrible Padres team before getting to the Deacon.

That said, Storm Davis really is more a function of how amazing that offense was. He won 19 games with an ERA+ of 85.

RC21 wrote:

Hungary Jack wrote:I also remember the 1989 A's with Dave Stewart (21-9), Mike Moore (19-11), Bob Welch (17-8), Storm Davis (19-7).

Maybe the Deacon's best job. Stewart had been a swingman in LA and was looking for a job after having picked up a transvestite prostitute when he came to Oakland, Welch was fighting alcohol problems when he departed LA, Mike Moore had been scarred by years of playing in an extreme hitters park for a horrible team in Seattle, and Storm Davis had been relegated to the bullpen for a horrible Padres team before getting to the Deacon.

That said, Storm Davis really is more a function of how amazing that offense was. He won 19 games with an ERA+ of 85.

If the Deacon was able to remedy all those ills, then how he could he have failed to save Jason Marquis?

Hungary Jack wrote:If the Deacon was able to remedy all those ills, then how he could he have failed to save Jason Marquis?

Didn't he?

Before he came here, he had an ERA+ of 96.

Here, he had an ERA+ of 93, but it was wrecked by 2006. In 2004 and 2005, he was 113 and 103.